C-85 Upgrade - What else while the plane is down?

[N96337]

Sounds like he's mad because we posted HIS drawings and stuff... I'll take mine down. Didn't realize they were propriatory.
John

[astjp2]

where did you hear that? The drawings are not useful for installation unless you have the STC approval from him, If he would help out a little, it would be nice to get the straight story, he might sell a few more STC's.

[N96337]

Direct from him, Tim.
John

[N96337]

Copied from his post on faceplant......

"Hello all you lovely people! (in my best Waldo Pepper voice!) I need to speak to an issue that came to my attention today. I am posting this on behalf of Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC. Please bear with me.. I may get into a slight rant here. Somehow, I am locked out of the Taylorcraft Forum, but not a big deal. For those who are on it, I understand there is a topic where folks are discussing the STC # SA1-210, owned by Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC (CAP). I saw some of the discussion but I am having trouble with my forum login tonight. I will keep trying to get in.
Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC is not OK with folks sharing images of our proprietary drawings and STC data that we purchased outright from Bob Harer’s widow. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING COPIES OF OUR DATA ON PUBLIC FORUMS. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SENDING COPIES OF CAP DATA (HARD COPIES, E-COPIES, OR ANY OTHER FORMAT) TO OTHERS WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM C.A.P. The STC and associated drawings are CONFIDENTIAL and their use is authorized on individual serial numbers only."

[PA1195]

Maybe we'll soon have a discussion re my Post #39 and concerns that have been voiced here by others as well. All with mutual respect among fellow Taylorcrafters.

Gary

[barnstmr]

Thanks Bob Ollerton. Whatever you did worked.

For starters ... here is my FB post from last night. In its entirety.

Hello all you lovely people! (in my best Waldo Pepper voice!) I need to speak to an issue that came to my attention today. I am posting this on behalf of Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC. Please bear with me.. I may get into a slight rant here. Somehow, I am locked out of the Taylorcraft Forum, but not a big deal. For those who are on it, I understand there is a topic where folks are discussing the STC # SA1-210, owned by Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC (CAP). I saw some of the discussion but I am having trouble with my forum login tonight. I will keep trying to get in.

Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC is not OK with folks sharing images of our proprietary drawings and STC data that we purchased outright from Bob Harer’s widow. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING COPIES OF OUR DATA ON PUBLIC FORUMS. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SENDING COPIES OF CAP DATA (HARD COPIES, E-COPIES, OR ANY OTHER FORMAT) TO OTHERS WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM C.A.P. The STC and associated drawings are CONFIDENTIAL and their use is authorized on individual serial numbers only.

Next year will mark the 10th year since we became the caretakers for STC # SA1-210 for the 85-horsepower upgrade for Taylorcraft B-series airplanes. Since then, we have touched the lives of over TWO HUNDRED B-series Taylorcrafts. We work hard every day to steward this 61-year-old STC and to continue the legacy of Taylorcraft airplanes and this historic STC. I personally give up most weekends and evenings after I get off from my day job to support CAP. We believe that we are fair and provide quality and much needed support. We have taken on the responsibility to shoulder the liability of this STC. We spend hours on the phone with customers to help them make good decisions before buying the STC and to help them implement the STC properly after they purchase it for their specific Taylorcraft. It’s not a profitable business but we do it because we are trying to help folks and keep these old Taylorcrafts legal.

There are too many armchair self-proclaimed experts out there trying to speak for our company. People need to go to the STC holder for the facts and stop spreading wrong opinions and confidential data. We don’t always respond quickly. And there are some folks we have had a hard time reaching back to after they call. But we do our best to get back to you. We appreciate our customers. We love these old Taylorcrafts. For those who have offered their kind words about CAP and me, Thank you.

[barnstmr]

If you look closely there are 3 letters combined in the one single file as referenced in post #29. First is from Ferris Flying Service. The 2nd from Gilberti Aviation. 3rd is from Taylorcraft Inc. There are no dates given. So an understanding of history is necessary. Jack Gilberti created STC # SA1-210 during a time when the Taylorcraft factory was not in business. He did so believing that the available C85 engine made a better airplane out of the already great B series Taylorcrafts. Later the factory reopened and Jack Gilberti remained on staff there as Chief Engineer. He helped the factory put kits together (4th page) to assist people to make 85 hp conversions (not with Gilberti data but instead with support from the factory including model changes issued by the factory). This didn’t go on for very long. The factory again closed down. Later the Feris’ set out to reopen the factory. But by then the CAA was no more and the FAA told them they had to reapply for a new TC. They certified the model 19 which was virtually identical to the prior BC12D-4-85. But on paper it was certified under newer certification basis (CAR 3 regulations instead of CAR 04). This is the reason model 19 has a much higher max weight than the identical BC12D-4-85. There’s more to it. But I need to get ready for Church.

[barnstmr]

Tim you posted about fuel starvation at high angle of attack with 0-200. That’s the reason the F-19 has a usable capacity of only 9 gallons in the main tank. See TCDS 1A9.

[astjp2]

Terry, Please keep up correcting us on what people perceive and is wrong, if we hear it from you then it may stop the spread of misinformation. Thanks, Tim

[barnstmr]

Gravity flow and unusable fuel is much less of a concern for C85 operators than O-200 operators. If you look at the service Bulletin below, you can compare charts and see that full throttle fuel flow is around 7 gph for C85 and close to 10 gph for O-200.

https://m.box.com/shared_item/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.box.net%2Fs%2Fgb9v3ss7ls

[astjp2]

Ok, what is the deal for the venting and using the Rochester fuel gauge? That has been a debate as to whether it is actually necessary or if there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing.

[barnstmr]

As far as fuel venting goes, Jack Gilberti revised the STC in 1971 to update the fuel vent configuration as was approved for the factory model 19 (CAR 3). From the beginning it was Jack’s intent to keep the STC SA1-210 “equivalent” in every way to the most recent factory model. The Ferris 19 and F19 vent system was an attempt to reduce the F19 unusable fuel by using a pressurized vent system (pitot style tube over cockpit). I have DER approved various deviations from the STC in order to add the ability to customize Taylorcraft’s. Most folks don’t want an exactly equivalent configuration to the factory versions.

[barnstmr]

As for the Rochester gauge. Look again at the TC 1A9. A placard is required with wording (can’t recall exactly) but indicating that the gauge is pretty much inaccurate at all times except in level flight when empty).

[PA1195]

Hi Terry and others. As I read 1A9 it doesn't appear to address gauge accuracy just useable fuel and refill from wing tank conditions.. See NOTE 2 placards. I calibrated mine 3-point and level. It reads Full when ~12g full, ~9 when 3/4, ~6g when half, and ~3g when indicating Empty. The gauge values varied little tail level or 3-point ~12* deck angle.

So from this can I assume there were several options for fuel gauging and venting? Do they vary across time and date of STC revisions, or depend on what approved data source is used? What system does your current STC call out for when upgrading to Option A - BC12D-85 or Option B for BC12D-4-85 or Model 19?

That 's where all this started in Post #10 and subsequent.

Gary

[barnstmr]

Sorry. My memory was wrong. That gauge accuracy note I in the AFM for F19. Not in the TCDS.