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  • Healthy Engine Indication?

    Happy New Year to all. It has been unseasonably fair weather here in western NY and thus the Taylorcraft and I have tried to capitalize. Last October I posted a thread regarding a stuck exhaust valve, and to be honest that sticks in my mind, constantly wondering if the engine is healthy, am I damaging it beyond the typical "parts are moving there is wear".

    It was 39 degrees yesterday and no wind which means the Taylorcraft Gods were in agreement that I needed to leave work early and fly. Plus it would be the first time in the 3 years I've owned the plane I can say I flew it in January. Despite for the few days previous being in the low 20's, the poor man's heater had all external metal engine parts in the 60 to 75 degree range (per infared thermometer) and engine oil 62 degrees. It fired on first pull and ran smooth at 400 rpm. When I got back to the cockpit oil was 28 psi. I set the throttle to 900 rpm to warm it up. Density altitude was -400 msl, so takeoff performance fun for the C85-8. Tail up almost instantly and 1200 fpm climb to 2000' msl a little above best climb speed (130 lbs under gross).

    The thoughts of that valve go through the mind again...... How would I know if I was chewing something up before it was too late? The engine feels normal, it's responsive to power changes, let's check some numbers and see if the data is helpful? I did speed runs in 180 degree tracks to average for wind at 2000 msl. At 2400 rpm (where my A&P told me to keep it, no less than 2300, don't baby it keep it warm), IAS was 108-110 mph and ground speed averaged 94 kts, at 2300 rpm IAS 102 mph and 88 kts ground speed. I had read about full power/max rpm and my A&P asked me to confirm it but not let go beyond redline, so balls to the wall and let stabilize at about 2560-2580 rpm (hard to be exact with old gauge), IAS was 118-120 mph and ground speed was 102 to 104 kts. I checked the ground speed and climb data against the cloudahoy telemetry and the numbers were consistent (very cool program). There was no detectable change in vibration perhaps a little smoother at higher rpm just louder. Keep in mind I don't have the wheel fairings on now, I do have the winter plate on and tape around it. Oil temp was in the 155 to 160 degree range which I thought low for a 40 degree day, but I have a lot air exit space on my cowl and no restriction to cylinders at front of cowl, new tight baffles.

    Next after flying for 1.4 hrs and doing 4 landings (yes there were four approaches too, not bounces, LOL), it took 6.4 gallons of 100LL for average of 4.4 gph. Upon shot down I used the infared thermometer to get temps on the cylinders. My thinking if something was still stuck, I would have a significantly higher or lower temp on that cylinder. I shot the valve cover and the fin near the spark plug on each cylinder (always warmer there). All valve covers were in the 160 degree range with the back cylinders about 8 degrees warmer and on the fin was around 175 to 180 degrees with not much variation (4 or 5 degrees) from cylinder to cylinder.

    It has been 12 hours of flying since they cleaned the carbon deposits out of the offending exhaust valve. After that fix the compression in all cylinders was 78 with one at 76. Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment to check the compression.

    So my question to all of you with more experience than me and I don't know a ton about engines, is any of this indicative of an engine that's doing ok, or more importantly that valve is not sticking again? I realize it's hard to know what is going on inside an engine, but I've read articles saying a stuck valve you'll definitely know and others saying you may not until it's too late or you're at least doing a lot of damage. Maybe it's time to stop worrying about it and just fly it, but we love this little baby and want to take care of it.

    I know this is a lot of stuff but hey, it's winter I know at least some of you will enjoy chewing on the data. :-) Thanks,

  • #2
    Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

    Originally posted by dkenney1 View Post
    Happy New Year to all. It has been unseasonably fair weather here in western NY and thus the Taylorcraft and I have tried to capitalize. Last October I posted a thread regarding a stuck exhaust valve, and to be honest that sticks in my mind, constantly wondering if the engine is healthy, am I damaging it beyond the typical "parts are moving there is wear".

    It was 39 degrees yesterday and no wind which means the Taylorcraft Gods were in agreement that I needed to leave work early and fly. Plus it would be the first time in the 3 years I've owned the plane I can say I flew it in January. Despite for the few days previous being in the low 20's, the poor man's heater had all external metal engine parts in the 60 to 75 degree range (per infared thermometer) and engine oil 62 degrees. It fired on first pull and ran smooth at 400 rpm. When I got back to the cockpit oil was 28 psi. I set the throttle to 900 rpm to warm it up. Density altitude was -400 msl, so takeoff performance fun for the C85-8. Tail up almost instantly and 1200 fpm climb to 2000' msl a little above best climb speed (130 lbs under gross).

    The thoughts of that valve go through the mind again...... How would I know if I was chewing something up before it was too late? The engine feels normal, it's responsive to power changes, let's check some numbers and see if the data is helpful? I did speed runs in 180 degree tracks to average for wind at 2000 msl. At 2400 rpm (where my A&P told me to keep it, no less than 2300, don't baby it keep it warm), IAS was 108-110 mph and ground speed averaged 94 kts, at 2300 rpm IAS 102 mph and 88 kts ground speed. I had read about full power/max rpm and my A&P asked me to confirm it but not let go beyond redline, so balls to the wall and let stabilize at about 2560-2580 rpm (hard to be exact with old gauge), IAS was 118-120 mph and ground speed was 102 to 104 kts. I checked the ground speed and climb data against the cloudahoy telemetry and the numbers were consistent (very cool program). There was no detectable change in vibration perhaps a little smoother at higher rpm just louder. Keep in mind I don't have the wheel fairings on now, I do have the winter plate on and tape around it. Oil temp was in the 155 to 160 degree range which I thought low for a 40 degree day, but I have a lot air exit space on my cowl and no restriction to cylinders at front of cowl, new tight baffles.

    Next after flying for 1.4 hrs and doing 4 landings (yes there were four approaches too, not bounces, LOL), it took 6.4 gallons of 100LL for average of 4.4 gph. Upon shot down I used the infared thermometer to get temps on the cylinders. My thinking if something was still stuck, I would have a significantly higher or lower temp on that cylinder. I shot the valve cover and the fin near the spark plug on each cylinder (always warmer there). All valve covers were in the 160 degree range with the back cylinders about 8 degrees warmer and on the fin was around 175 to 180 degrees with not much variation (4 or 5 degrees) from cylinder to cylinder.

    It has been 12 hours of flying since they cleaned the carbon deposits out of the offending exhaust valve. After that fix the compression in all cylinders was 78 with one at 76. Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment to check the compression.

    So my question to all of you with more experience than me and I don't know a ton about engines, is any of this indicative of an engine that's doing ok, or more importantly that valve is not sticking again? I realize it's hard to know what is going on inside an engine, but I've read articles saying a stuck valve you'll definitely know and others saying you may not until it's too late or you're at least doing a lot of damage. Maybe it's time to stop worrying about it and just fly it, but we love this little baby and want to take care of it.

    I know this is a lot of stuff but hey, it's winter I know at least some of you will enjoy chewing on the data. :-) Thanks,

    Run a compression check, and if all is well then fly it, all I can suggest

    JS

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

      All those numbers sound reasonable to me (why do you use kts on your gps ?.

      I have the C85 stroker, and your numbers are about on par with mine, give or take. What fuel do you use: mogas or 100LL? I run on 100LL and occasionally put in some Redex (similar to MMO) to keep the valve guides clean, so I'm told, but no convincing evidence. A stuck valve (on small Continentals) won't really chew anything up, but it's obviously not right for engine longevity.

      Your warm NY weather is related to the UK's warm and wet weather. We're hoping for a cold snap to kill off all the bugs & slugs and to stop the daffodils from sprouting. We've had one frost this winter so far, and I keep having to turn the domestic heating off!

      If you think you have stuck valve symptoms, pull the prop through by hand both before & after flight, that'll show you. Plus the rough running. I assume you have electric start.

      Rob

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

        If you have a stuck valve you will know it.

        Rob, I would guess no starter since he said it started on the first pull.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

          Rob he said C85-8 no starter.Pull the prop threw and compare how each compression on all 4 cylinders feel if close to the same fly it.
          1940 BLT/BC65 N26658 SER#2000

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

            dkenny, your motor sounds like it's perfectly healthy.
            If pulling it over by hand you can usually feel a "soft" cylinder.
            Keep running 100L & you will likely have more problems with stuck valves.
            100L has (I believe) 4X the lead content the old 80-87L which these old low compression motors were designed for.
            46 BC-12D Taylorcraft
            46 Chief

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

              Rob, I have an armstrong starter, no charging or jumper cables necessary, just slower with age. When I pull the prop through at consistent slow speed it feels about the same each time when I hear the bendix click. The only air sounds I get is a sucking from the carburetor. The left side cylinders were about 10 degrees warmer than the left side. I normally run auto fuel, 91 octane ethanol free, but in the winter use 100LL because it doesn't go bad as quickly and I don't fly much sometimes two or three months without starting it. It had about 30 hrs SMOH when I bought it two years ago and I've put 110 hours on it. How much of the MMO do you put in per gallon? Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. Darrin

              Originally posted by Robert Lees View Post
              All those numbers sound reasonable to me (why do you use kts on your gps ?.

              I have the C85 stroker, and your numbers are about on par with mine, give or take. What fuel do you use: mogas or 100LL? I run on 100LL and occasionally put in some Redex (similar to MMO) to keep the valve guides clean, so I'm told, but no convincing evidence. A stuck valve (on small Continentals) won't really chew anything up, but it's obviously not right for engine longevity.

              Your warm NY weather is related to the UK's warm and wet weather. We're hoping for a cold snap to kill off all the bugs & slugs and to stop the daffodils from sprouting. We've had one frost this winter so far, and I keep having to turn the domestic heating off!

              If you think you have stuck valve symptoms, pull the prop through by hand both before & after flight, that'll show you. Plus the rough running. I assume you have electric start.

              Rob

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

                Senior, thanks for the vote of confidence. My AP told me the same thing. However, he did suggest prior to winter storage to put 100LL in the tank and burn a tank or two through the engine so carb doesn't gum up which MoGas is more prone to. I had the opportunity to fly it again and didn't realize the AP was at the airport working on another plane. He told me once I landed that based on the sound and climb rate on takeoff, "if you have a bad cylinder or valve, you have three super strong ones over compensating"

                Originally posted by senior View Post
                dkenny, your motor sounds like it's perfectly healthy.
                If pulling it over by hand you can usually feel a "soft" cylinder.
                Keep running 100L & you will likely have more problems with stuck valves.
                100L has (I believe) 4X the lead content the old 80-87L which these old low compression motors were designed for.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

                  Originally posted by dkenney1 View Post
                  How much of the MMO do you put in per gallon? Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. Darrin
                  I don't know about MMO, Darrin, I use a similar product in the UK called Redex. I follow the instructions on the bottle; perhaps others can chime in about MMO.

                  Anyway, the considered opinion here seems to be that you don't have a problem

                  Rob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Healthy Engine Indication?

                    Darrin,

                    I follow the directions on the MMO container. There is a LOT of info on MMO and airplanes on the internet. Just understand it is not an allowable additive on certified aircraft, though that has never slowed some folks from using it. Allegedly it is similar to TCP in scavenging lead out of the engine.
                    Cheers,
                    Marty


                    TF #596
                    1946 BC-12D N95258
                    Former owner of:
                    1946 BC-12D/N95275
                    1943 L-2B/N3113S

                    Comment

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