Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

[Pearson]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

Maybe we need to step forward and try to get the foundation on solid ground again.

Or start over with a completely new organization, reapply for tax exempt status, elect leaders who have time to devote to furthering the cause of our aircraft, and establish a new culture of helpfulness. To me the word Foundation in the title is a misnomer that implies some sort of philanthropic endowment for a worthy cause. Granted, keeping our antique airplanes flying IS a worthy cause, but there is no philanthropy taking place that I know of. I suggest calling it what it actually is, The Taylorcraft Owners Club. I suggest establishing a set of bylaws and a means to ensure they are complies with. Tap the vast pool of knowledge and experience within the readers of the forum to create an organization where people aren't afraid to buy a Taylorcraft because of lack of support. All one has to do is review the websites of almost any other type club to see what we are missing out on. Sure getting the factory going again will help. But they are in business to make a profit, and that does not always dovetail with our needs. The Foundation appears to have been a great idea. And it COULD be remodeled into something more beneficial to owners and restorers. But with Forrest owning the drawings and the tax exempt status revoked, what is left other than this forum and the talent pool of the readers? And it was recently pointed out that this forum isn't exactly part of the Foundation.

[3Dreaming]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

The Taylorcraft Owners Club predates the foundation by quite a bit. I'm not sure, but there might be a rights issue with trying to use that name. When I Googled it it went to a page for the people who have the Taylorcraft news letter.

[Pearson]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

You can call it whatever you want. I am just suggesting that maybe it is worth considering if maybe a fresh start might be a good idea.

[Michael]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

OK Guys, sounds like there is a lot of energy to save the foundation. Taylorcraft planes will be here forever. Lets organize and see if we can get a team to Texas? Who owns what is to be seen, again when you have an organization that is not organized, we will never know who owns what? Its easy to say "I own them," but what funds where used to purchase them? If a single penny was used, they belong to the foundation. Also, it would be interesting to see the foundations minutes and treasurer reports. I know that in California any citizen can view the tax returns from any 501(c)(3). Even Bernie Madoff can say he owns the blueprints, diagrams, etc!

That said, I have a feeling that all the legal paperwork is not in order. So we can use a nice approach and hope that you get the cooperation of the people in charge of the foundation and allow us to copy the documents. Second option is to ask the State Attorney General to step in?

Below are my credentials:
Restoring Taylorcraft planes, 1 year experience.
Working with Human Behavior, 25 years.

[barnstmr]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

It seems like this thread is evolving toward talks of re-organization. Is that what I am reading here, or is it just a few with this in mind? Before this all heads down that path, I hope some of the wise older folks can chime in to help teach us all about where we've been so as not to repeat bad habits and perhaps learn from some of the good history.

Most recently, the Taylorcraft Owner's Club has been through some changes over the past 3 or 4 years... someone else may be able to better explain all those changes, but the TOC dates back at least 30 years probably more. I am not even sure why the Taylorcraft Foundation got started as a separate entity from the TOC as I was not active during that time. Perhaps it was kind of like a church split that must have happened. If you follow Luscombes at all, a similar sort of thing has happened in the Luscombe groups over the years. I think they now have three or four "denominations". It is a shame when all cannot come together for the common good. Four smaller groups are weaker than one unified one.

How many of you have been following the latest from the Taylorcraft Owner's Club (TOC)?
A few years back, the "ownership" of the TOC was sold to Steve Krog (the same guy who ran the "Cub Club" for many years and also the "Luscombe Club"). Within the past year, Steve passed all three clubs on to Paul and Dana Omanski.

Here are a couple of excerpts from their latest magazine. They've combined the Cub/Luscombe/Taylorcraft newsletters into one single publication. It is a very nice 24 page publication. I have not yet warmed up to the idea completely myself. So far it seems that whatever momentum that the TOC had a decade ago has slowed way down and the Omanski's are trying to regain it. To me it seems most of the interest is up in the Northern Midwest.

One of the difficulties we face is that Taylorcrafts are spread far and wide. It is difficult to have a fully representative "meeting of the minds" from all corners of the USA, let alone the globe. We seem to have a fairly strong group of Taylorcrafters in AK, CA, TX, IA, OH, VA and maybe TN and a few other states. But it is rare for many of these folks to come together at one place/time. It might not hurt to put together a ad-hoc group of representatives from these hot-spot areas to share ideas through a conference call or internet conference. It certainly would help to include the Foundation's Directors and the TOC "caretakers" as well.

For that matter, maybe it makes better sense to start a new thread right here on the forum with a specific aim to start some talks about re-organization.

I am attaching a couple of scans from the latest TOC for those who may not know about them.

[Guest]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

Hi Michael and all,

Recall that this discussion was started as a side track to this thread=> http://vb.taylorcraft.org/showthread...om-the-Factory

The spread sheet is here =>http://vb.taylorcraft.org/showthread...-Factory/page2

My summary of the spread sheet is on page one and looked like this;

Additionally I recall that about 4 years ago we had a thread discussion about the factory making parts. I took the position that the demand was not great enough to justify production.

We took a survey of what parts we might order and folks posted what they were looking to find/buy.

I cannot find that thread. It seems that the searches or data does not go back that far.

I did find that excel spread sheet that I made at that time.

The data at that time showed that there was a demand for a quantity of 127 parts total.

The 127 parts were spread over 99 part numbers.

The largest demand for any part number was 4.

Out of the 99 part numbers at that time Univair already provided 20, Wag Aero provided 14 and 27 were available from other sources.

Looking all three sources I see that a total of 34 of the 99 part numbers were available from at least one of the three sources that I mentioned.

Bottom line for me is this; 1) there is not enough demand for any factory to build parts, 2) ditto for building planes and 3) small fab shops like univair, wag-aero... are the best source for help now and future.

One only needs drawings or reverse engineering to accomplish #3.

My #1 conclusion is that it is probably a waste of time to entertain any interaction with the "factory" or TC owner unless it leads to drawing availability.

I notice that Wag Aero has started making a few t-craft parts recently and Forrest had stated that he was interacting with them so I connect the dots and assume that access even to the copied set can be had. But it has been at least tedious for us folks.

So my second conclusion is that obtaining drawings from other than the factory is never going to happen. That leaves reverse engineering as means of achieving #3 or dependency on wag and univair.

This is expensive work and the payoff is not known, what I mean is that you may never recover the costs. If that is the case then simply making repair parts by a mechanic is a better alternative than making PMA parts that never sell enough to payoff the effort.

Ok I am rambling again, sorry. The end of it all in my mind is that you need a collection of drawings or prior approved data or 337's that we and mechanics can use to make repair parts from in the situations where that is required.

Dave

[Guest]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

It seems like this thread is evolving toward talks of re-organization. Is that what I am reading here, or is it just a few with this in mind? Before this all heads down that path, I hope some of the wise older folks can chime in to help teach us all about where we've been so as not to repeat bad habits and perhaps learn from some of the good history.

Most recently, the Taylorcraft Owner's Club has been through some changes over the past 3 or 4 years... someone else may be able to better explain all those changes, but the TOC dates back at least 30 years probably more. I am not even sure why the Taylorcraft Foundation got started as a separate entity from the TOC as I was not active during that time. Perhaps it was kind of like a church split that must have happened. If you follow Luscombes at all, a similar sort of thing has happened in the Luscombe groups over the years. I think they now have three or four "denominations". It is a shame when all cannot come together for the common good. Four smaller groups are weaker than one unified one.

How many of you have been following the latest from the Taylorcraft Owner's Club (TOC)?
A few years back, the "ownership" of the TOC was sold to Steve Krog (the same guy who ran the "Cub Club" for many years and also the "Luscombe Club"). Within the past year, Steve passed all three clubs on to Paul and Dana Omanski.

Here are a couple of excerpts from their latest magazine. They've combined the Cub/Luscombe/Taylorcraft newsletters into one single publication. It is a very nice 24 page publication. I have not yet warmed up to the idea completely myself. So far it seems that whatever momentum that the TOC had a decade ago has slowed way down and the Omanski's are trying to regain it. To me it seems most of the interest is up in the Northern Midwest.

One of the difficulties we face is that Taylorcrafts are spread far and wide. It is difficult to have a fully representative "meeting of the minds" from all corners of the USA, let alone the globe. We seem to have a fairly strong group of Taylorcrafters in AK, CA, TX, IA, OH, VA and maybe TN and a few other states. But it is rare for many of these folks to come together at one place/time. It might not hurt to put together a ad-hoc group of representatives from these hot-spot areas to share ideas through a conference call or internet conference. It certainly would help to include the Foundation's Directors and the TOC "caretakers" as well.

For that matter, maybe it makes better sense to start a new thread right here on the forum with a specific aim to start some talks about re-organization.

I am attaching a couple of scans from the latest TOC for those who may not know about them.

I don't know why either. I joined TOC around 1982 and was surprised by the foundation's appearance. The old TOC would send out quarterly letter and it would have some tech stuff in it from time to time. I still have many of the news letters.

Dave

[crispy critter]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

It seems like this thread is evolving toward talks of re-organization. Is that what I am reading here, or is it just a few with this in mind? Before this all heads down that path, I hope some of the wise older folks can chime in to help teach us all about where we've been so as not to repeat bad habits and perhaps learn from some of the good history.

Most recently, the Taylorcraft Owner's Club has been through some changes over the past 3 or 4 years... someone else may be able to better explain all those changes, but the TOC dates back at least 30 years probably more. I am not even sure why the Taylorcraft Foundation got started as a separate entity from the TOC as I was not active during that time. Perhaps it was kind of like a church split that must have happened. If you follow Luscombes at all, a similar sort of thing has happened in the Luscombe groups over the years. I think they now have three or four "denominations". It is a shame when all cannot come together for the common good. Four smaller groups are weaker than one unified one.

How many of you have been following the latest from the Taylorcraft Owner's Club (TOC)?
A few years back, the "ownership" of the TOC was sold to Steve Krog (the same guy who ran the "Cub Club" for many years and also the "Luscombe Club"). Within the past year, Steve passed all three clubs on to Paul and Dana Omanski.

Here are a couple of excerpts from their latest magazine. They've combined the Cub/Luscombe/Taylorcraft newsletters into one single publication. It is a very nice 24 page publication. I have not yet warmed up to the idea completely myself. So far it seems that whatever momentum that the TOC had a decade ago has slowed way down and the Omanski's are trying to regain it. To me it seems most of the interest is up in the Northern Midwest.

One of the difficulties we face is that Taylorcrafts are spread far and wide. It is difficult to have a fully representative "meeting of the minds" from all corners of the USA, let alone the globe. We seem to have a fairly strong group of Taylorcrafters in AK, CA, TX, IA, OH, VA and maybe TN and a few other states. But it is rare for many of these folks to come together at one place/time. It might not hurt to put together a ad-hoc group of representatives from these hot-spot areas to share ideas through a conference call or internet conference. It certainly would help to include the Foundation's Directors and the TOC "caretakers" as well.

For that matter, maybe it makes better sense to start a new thread right here on the forum with a specific aim to start some talks about re-organization.

I am attaching a couple of scans from the latest TOC for those who may not know about them.

Terry,
I could see to as a sign, since I currently own a taylorcraft, J3 cub, and a luscombe,lol. Kev

[N96290]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

As a former Tri Pacer owner I saw the implosion of one of the strongest type clubs around, the Short Wing Piper Club. The internet was one of the bigger factors involved, smoldering issues got chewed over until there was a raging wildfire. There was the old guard who were not very active on the forum and the newer group who bonded together. The forum divided and there is one group which answers technical and repair issues pretty well, much like this group, and the other which is pretty much a social (or anti social) group that very seldom gives a meaningful answer to repair questions but someone will quickly point out that mere mortals can not be given this knowlege without even knowing whether that person is indeed an A&P or A&I, working with their mechenic or what the situation is. There were many problems and issues and the rift has went as far as a lawsuit, which was fortunately dropped but there is still a wound which will never completely heal.
A type club should be for the preservation of information both physical and procedural to keep the brand flying, organize the social interaction of the group, and work with other like minded groups to guide government regulation as it pertains to our interests. This will not be or should not have to be any one person but rather be a leadership core to guide this effort. This core would include old guard knowledge, newbie energy, and the blend that will getter done.
Sadly I have not introduced any silver bullet which will cure all but we need to back off, take a deep breath, and keep our finger off the detonator. Back under my rock.

[Guest]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

As a former Tri Pacer owner I saw the implosion of one of the strongest type clubs around, the Short Wing Piper Club. The internet was one of the bigger factors involved, smoldering issues got chewed over until there was a raging wildfire. There was the old guard who were not very active on the forum and the newer group who bonded together. The forum divided and there is one group which answers technical and repair issues pretty well, much like this group, and the other which is pretty much a social (or anti social) group that very seldom gives a meaningful answer to repair questions but someone will quickly point out that mere mortals can not be given this knowlege without even knowing whether that person is indeed an A&P or A&I, working with their mechenic or what the situation is. There were many problems and issues and the rift has went as far as a lawsuit, which was fortunately dropped but there is still a wound which will never completely heal.
A type club should be for the preservation of information both physical and procedural to keep the brand flying, organize the social interaction of the group, and work with other like minded groups to guide government regulation as it pertains to our interests. This will not be or should not have to be any one person but rather be a leadership core to guide this effort. This core would include old guard knowledge, newbie energy, and the blend that will getter done.
Sadly I have not introduced any silver bullet which will cure all but we need to back off, take a deep breath, and keep our finger off the detonator. Back under my rock.

Hi Lyn,

Thanks.

Point taken, good observation.

Dave

[robbie]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

Drude post was a good post and the real truth about our t-craft. You look in a wag- aero book for cub parts and every thing is there. At the present time a lot of parts are available from our members. They might not be new but they are parts which can be used. What will happen in the future I don't know, but if the foundation or a group had the drawings available for members, I believe a lots of our problems would be gone. That why I suggested talking with Brownsville and see what they plan to do.
would the sell some of the drawings, maybe forest would sell some. Can they legally. I don't know, need a lawyer
.

[Michael]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

Good points from everybody! Keep in mind that in the previous posts I believe Forrest said access to the forum may not be available to non-members. Through time, sometimes the mission changes, and so does our outlook and opinions regarding what the organization should be.Its important to have a mission and a vision regardless of what we do.We can always start a new site? But before we go there:

- I would like to have the current board members of the foundation chime in (does anybody know who they are?). I hope they chime in, because if their names are still on record, they are liable. Board member liability is real. If you take a board job, beware and prepared. They must be prepared to govern appropriately and make sure your fellow board members are playing by the rules. Mixing your personal business with board business is a sure way to get sued!

- Any citizen can have access to the minutes , etc from a 501(c)(3). We need some one to request them and post them.

- As Pearson stated in his post, lets get the revoked status cleared up.

- Remember, Forrest is selling the airport and may now want to move on to better and greener pastures.

- Its easy to file with the Ohio State offices regarding changing the new make up of board members, etc.

- If there is no accurate records kept regarding what was purchased with the foundations funds, we will never know what the foundation really owns and what Forrest owns.

I was once the treasurer (4 years) to a non profit organization, with a 4.2 million dollar budget. Every year we would be audited at the cost of about 5,500 dollars for the audit. We were always off by about 76 cents. Being audited gave us the opportunity to apply for many grants and it gave the organization credibility in the community. That said, until we find out where the foundation stands legally, we could be taking on personal liability, yikes!

[waltermrich]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

Im just a casual observer and participant of this forum, and I enjoy it very much, I would have no objection to participating as a member and have been a past member, Your points are well said, I would just hope the Forum continues as it is, it is a remarkable and valuable tool for us owners of a Taylorcraft airplane.

[crispy critter]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

Good points from everybody! Keep in mind that in the previous posts I believe Forrest said access to the forum may not be available to non-members. Through time, sometimes the mission changes, and so does our outlook and opinions regarding what the organization should be.Its important to have a mission and a vision regardless of what we do.We can always start a new site? But before we go there:

- I would like to have the current board members of the foundation chime in (does anybody know who they are?). I hope they chime in, because if their names are still on record, they are liable. Board member liability is real. If you take a board job, beware and prepared. They must be prepared to govern appropriately and make sure your fellow board members are playing by the rules. Mixing your personal business with board business is a sure way to get sued!

- Any citizen can have access to the minutes , etc from a 501(c)(3). We need some one to request them and post them.

- As Pearson stated in his post, lets get the revoked status cleared up.

- Remember, Forrest is selling the airport and may now want to move on to better and greener pastures.

- Its easy to file with the Ohio State offices regarding changing the new make up of board members, etc.

- If there is no accurate records kept regarding what was purchased with the foundations funds, we will never know what the foundation really owns and what Forrest owns.

I was once the treasurer (4 years) to a non profit organization, with a 4.2 million dollar budget. Every year we would be audited at the cost of about 5,500 dollars for the audit. We were always off by about 76 cents. Being audited gave us the opportunity to apply for many grants and it gave the organization credibility in the community. That said, until we find out where the foundation stands legally, we could be taking on personal liability, yikes!

Mike,
Let's please not be talking anti suing anyone please......I like to think that all of us in this nice little discussion forum are a lot better then that. I agree that something needs to be done but lets do it as a group in a civil friendly matter. I have always loved everyone here simply because everyone works together. We have had some words and heated disagreements from time to time. God knows I've been in the middle of more then one,lol. But in the end we always work it out and remain friends and work together to help each other.

With that said here's my take on it...... I have no idea who the board members are, I know Forrest was president. Also, As some of his earlier posts made clear, the plans belong to him and he loans them to the foundation. Unfortunatly he has the right to treat them however he wants, or denie them to anyone he chooses. He does allow anyone being a foundation member to come to his place and access them anytime. He has every right to do that, I dont think it's the right thing to do. Especially now with his age, legal issues, etc. if something were to happen to Forrest those drawings could possibly be gone forever.....but the fact remains they are his to do with as he chooses and he wants to burn them on his death bed there's nothing we can do about it.

I feel that a reorganization of the foundation is a good idea but it should be done willingly, with support from all including the current board members. It should not be done with force or anger.

Above all, this discussion forum should always be free for anyone with a taylorcraft question to be able to access as they can now. Use some of the money from the foundation dues and donations to assist in the upkeep. I know most folks he are taylorcraft goo roos, a few of us have a second or more aircraft. But do you know how frustrating it is to attemp access to the ballanca forum Cessna 170 forum? If you have a tech question your out of luck unless ya want to pay a $50-60 membership fee. The 170 asso. Will help you over the phone with tech advise and you can read certain parts of there forum but for anything else ya gotta join. The ballanca covers everything with the citabria, decathlon, Viking, cruisair, etc... If you don't join their club they won't ever talk to you on the phone except to tell you where and how to join their club!

The cub forum gives full access to all their drawings, blueprints, and manuals. You dont have to be a paying member. You do have to become a member il,e you would here but its free. And anyone who needs or wants to access any of the cub stuff can do it online for free!! That's how it should be. Just my two cents worth.

[3Dreaming]

Re: Forrest Life and the Taylorcraft Foundation

I have been involved with taylorcrafts since before the foundation was formed. I think Forrest is overwhelmed with life and running a busuness, and doesn't have enough time to devote to the foundation. It seems some here expect more of him than what he can deliver.
Rather than trying to change things by just taking over, I think that we should offer to help what is already established.
The biggest problem I see is getting a line of communication established.
I have ideas, but not the time to post them right now.