Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

[NC22211]

I always thought it was the PIC's responsibility to calculate the W&B for each flight before take-off, using his knowledge of the airplane's limits and performance envelope. So, it struck me as interesting that I am being asked to install a placard in the cockpit limiting the passenger weight and/or fuel load and/or baggage weight to keep NC22211 within the allowable gross weight of 1100 pounds.

I searched this website for anyone who had to install similar placards to no avail. Does anyone out there have such a placard or does anyone have any idea about what exactly the intended placard should say so that I do NOT get into a "semantics violation" with a ramp checking FAA official?

My reply that I would take it upon myself as PIC to know my plane's limits and abide by them was not that well received.

Thanks to the T-craft.org guys for getting us back on the air! Missed the goings-on. Bob Coolbaugh

[Guest]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Hi Bob,

Read AC43.13-1B chapter 10 and notice section 10-18.

I do not add placards (per 10-18 they are not required) but rather use a loading schedule that I print and put in the airplane. Many years ago I made these schedules with pencil and paper but today I use a spread sheet then print it (I can't attach that but will send to to your email if you want it). Much easier.

Lastly I can't recal whether I am authorized to make these sheets thru my pilots license or A & P license. I feel really stupid about that and will have to look. I have had both for a long time and these details get forgotten.

Dave

[Bigdog]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

You've got a BL-65 right? The only reference I can find to a required placard in the TCDS is in Note 3: Required placard adjacent to shutoff valve of right and left wing tanks: “Refill main tank in level flight only”. Who is asking you and under what authority?

Sorry, just realized the TCDS I have for the BC's doesn't include the BL. You'll have to find the right TCDS. That's where you'll find the required placards.

[Pearson]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Bob, you and I must have gone to the same flight school. I was taught that prior to each flight you were supposed to compute your W&B to make sure you were within C.G. Somewhere in the regs, which I could not find, there used to be something that said basically that you had to carry in the aircraft something that showed the C.G. limits and empty weight and C.G. of the aircraft so that you had the information needed to compute your weight and balance. I suppose you could put a placard with all that info somewhere in the cockpit. But it would have to be about a foot square, or have writing so small no one could read it. I chose to carry the info sheet from where the aircraft was last weighed, along with one of those "owner's manual" documents from Univair. The W&B sheet shows the empty weight and C.G. of the aircraft along with the fore and aft limits. The pamphlet from Univair has all the cautions about transferring fuel and other things that some pilots choose to put on placards glued all over the cockpit. The regulation clearly states that if the aircraft has a Flight Manual, it has to be in the aircraft. But it also goes on to say that if it does NOT require a Flight Manual it must have in the aircraft approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof. Our planes were certified without Flight Manuals, so either "manual material", "markings", or "any combination thereof" would meet the regs. See below 91.9 b2

§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual IS required by § 21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in § 121.141(b); and

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is NOT required by § 21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

[barnstmr]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Bob,
You told me that your airplane has a "Taylor-Young" data plate. Show your inspector, the max wt. is shown right on the data plate.

Also.... See T.C.D.S. # 700, Note 1. It States:

NOTE 1. Current weight and balance report including list of equipment included in certificated weight
empty, and loading instructions when necessary, must be in each aircraft at the time of original
certification and at all times thereafter (except in the case of air carrier operators having an
approved weight control system).

Also note: My BC12D has a CAA Form ACA-309 (see photo), which resides in the same pouch as the registration on display in the cockpit. When I removed the RH wing tank, I made a new card (similar to ACA-309) and This is attached on top of the original ACA-309 form, on display in the cockpit. THIS IS THE SIMPLEST WAY I HAVE FOUND TO MEET THE REQUIREMENT. Look in your Airworthiness records. Your airplane should have had the ACA-309 form issued in its early years.

Then note that under CAR 4a, a placard is required for the baggage compartment (30 lb. per TCDS A700) as follows:
§ 4a.512 Baggage compartments. Each baggage and mail compartment shall bear a placard stating the maximum allowable weight of contents, as determined by the structural strength of the compartment (§ 4a.194) and by flight test (§ 4a.725). Suitable means shall be provided to prevent the contents of mail and baggage compartments from shifting.

There are no further requirements.

[barnstmr]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

By the way.... it it IMPORTANT to note that the BL and BC airplanes have a different certification basis.

BL per TCDS A700 is certified to CAR 4a

BC per TCDS A696 is certified to CAR 4

The differences are subtle but it makes a difference to the FAA. Note... for the BC series airplanes, here is the requirement for baggage placard:

04.465 Baggage compartments. Each baggage and mail compartment shall bear a placard stating the maximum
allowable weight of contents, as determined by the structural strength of the compartment ( 04.265) and by
flight test ( 04.742). Suitable means shall be provided to prevent the contents of mail and baggage compartments
from shifting.

[barnstmr]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Bob,
We have serial # 1145 (NC22207) just 4 away from yours. They must have had their original test flights within hours of each other. We have no such placard as you are being asked to install. It is not required. If such a placard were required there would be thousands of airplanes not in compliance.

HERE'S HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS FAA INSPECTOR: Ask him to show you the regulation. This will stop him in his tracks.

[M Towsley]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

And to add to Terry's explanation, my ACA-309 was yellow and brittle. I was advised by the FAA a copy of this in the airplane was sufficient if the original was too fragile to carry. I made a color copy as well as a copy of the e-mail from the FAA in case someone had issue with it.

[Guest]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

And to add to Terry's explanation, my ACA-309 was yellow and brittle. I was advised by the FAA a copy of this in the airplane was sufficient if the original was too fragile to carry. I made a color copy as well as a copy of the e-mail from the FAA in case someone had issue with it.

Hi Marty,

Perhaps more important than the 309's brittleness is its relevence to the airplane today.

What I mean is that mine is so far out dated due to changes and the fact that the airplane has now been weighed so the weights are no longer "calculated" that I just made a new equipment list.

I suspect that many others will also fall into this same circumstance.

Also I realize now that this thread has a fork with 2 prongs; 1) what the FAA requires in the airplane 2) what the pilot wants to create to make W & B convenient at/befor each flight.

Dave

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Hey Marty, can you post a picture of that email?
Hank

I ONLY have a copy. The original turned into potato chip crumbs decades ago.

[M Towsley]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

I will try to dig it up on my computer.

[NC22211]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Here's the solution I will try, notwithstanding my firm belief that it is the PIC's responsibility.

"Payload is 350#. Plan fuel, baggage and passenger load accordingly."

This statement is placed in view of the pilot in the left wing root, by the wing tank selector valve. We'll see on this coming
Wednesday if this passes muster. Conformity Inspection for the A/W certificate then. Annual inspection went well, NC22211 is all buttoned up, fuelled and ready to fly. A couple of taxi tests completed. Just needs paperwork and a willing heart to fly once again.

Bob C

[NC22211]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Change 4: We do NOT have to install a payload warning placard. Good news. All that we have to show are the Taylorcraft factory required placards. It took some back-and-forth between my IA, the DAR and his regional FAA office, but sanity prevailed in the end. Now I have to figure out how to unglue the offending placard without wrecking the paint. Better that than having to look at it while flying, though.

Noel Allard provided the correct placards and this Forum provided examples of where to install them. I used the Alliance Memories link as well.

[M Towsley]

Re: Weight and balance or gross weight warning placard

Hank,

Sorry I forgot to do this. The following is the answer I received from my local FAA Office regarding the carrying of a copy of the ACA-309 in the plane, instead of the very brittle original. Hope this helps. There was more to the e-mail regarding the request but the original question was via a phone conversation whereby he asked me to send him a copy of the form. As you can see from the answer this was probably a best case scenario after discussions with others.

Marty,

After much talking and nashing of teeth, we can advise you of the
following;

Since the aircraft's operating limitations dated 7-3-52 cannot be
duplicated, it is permissible to make a copy of the form and carry that in
the aircraft when it is operated. The other form you sent me with the
weight and balance information has been superseded as annotated on the
form. You should have a current weight and balance that should be carried
in the aircraft when operated. A copy is permissible. If you don't have a
current weight and balance, we strongly recommend that one be done prior to
the aircraft being operated. Better safe than sorry.

If you have any questions, please feel free to give me a call.

Kerry J. Gambrel
Principal Maintenance Inspector
Springfield, IL FSDO
217-744-1910