Trying to get back to basic flying

[Dennis Bute]

Since I'm new here I should start with an introduction. I recently sold my Cirrus because business has been slow and I had to make major cutbacks. I have not flown since September and I am getting a really strong itch to get back to basic flying on a tight budget. I have access to rental Piper Archers and Arrows but want to stick with an inexpensive LSA that I own.

I have been doing a lot of research and I keep coming back to the Tcraft as a great little bird for flying low and slow and I think I would really enjoy it rather than long cross country trips flown mostly using autopilot. I had a lot of fun in the Cirrus and crossed the country but usually up high and cruising fast.

I need an inexpensive plane to purchase and more importantly I need an inexpensive plane to fly maintain. It is a sad state of aviation when some annuals on the Cirrus almost purchase a decent Tcraft. If anyone would like to help me out with these questions I would appreciate the feedback.

1. I see posts regarding $400 and $700 annuals and would like to inquire if that is extra cost after the base cost of $1,000 for the annual and then an additional $400 to $700 or is this all in?

2. What is typical payload?

3. I'd like built in radio, due to Chicago airspace, and am wondering how many BC12D's have them built in.

4. What are people paying for annual insurance?

5. Does anyone have any opinions on this plane? http://www.barnstormers.com/classifi...aft+BC12D.html

6. Does anyone want to weigh in on other BC12D's on the market?
http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=search

7. Does anyone in the Chicago area want to give me my first ride in a Tcraft? PLEASE!! You can pretty much name the time and I'll do whatever I can to be there.

8. Can I get 100mph out of a 65hp BC12D? I've heard consistently 90mph but maybe not 100mph. There a few places around 300nm that I still like to visit.

9. And lastly does anyone have a nice, but not too nice, BC12D for sale that's not listed?


Thanks in advance for any input anyone can give on my list of questions. I need to get back into the air quick. Going through major withdrawal.

Dennis

[Robert Lees]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Hello Dennis, and welcome to the forum! Although the members of this site are biased (!!!), you are looking in the right direction.

I'll wait for others to chime in with their $$$ answers (I'm in a different country), but in the interim:

2. Gross weight = 1200lb (hence the "12" in the designation), so the usable load depends upon empty weight (typically 800 lbs or so); leaving you 400lbs legally for the rest. Get a proper W&B done before you purchase.

3. Many have a built-in radio, but even a battery-powered hand-held (connected to a properly grounded aerial) works fine...that's how I operate, all over Europe (including Class A airspace). I see you're in Ottawa IL; surely this is well away from airspace issues?

8. 100 mph is achievable on a BC12D, but...shall we say...only just. It's certainly faster than the equivalent-powered J3 Cub or Aeronca. Personally, I plan for 95mph at 2250 rpm in an A-65 powered BC12D. Having said that, if there's a hurry, go scheduled (or buy a Cirrus,,,sorry!)

Again, welcome, and let's see what the tribe think.

Rob

[Dennis Bute]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Thank you for your input Rob. I'll sit back and wait to here from everyone before getting too in-depth into the conversation.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Wow, a $400 to $700 repair on top of a $1,000 annual would be the biggest one I ever had! The LOWEST cost annual I have had was around $300 TOTAL. It WAS owner assist (that is a LOT of assist, but I would have paid him extra to let me help, you learn a LOT helping on a annual), so the cost is WAY less than you are used to.
Payload depends on the model. Most of the ones built around the war were 1,200# gross and Taylorcrafts gain weight over time, you need a recent REAL W&B to know what the payload is. Lots of "grin and look up" weights on the paperwork out there. A nice light Taylorcraft will weigh in at ~750# empty, but very few are that light empty.
Not many of the Taylorcrafts I have been in have a radio in the panel. Many of us use a hand held with an external antenna and it works great. You will want to find a field to fly from that is NOT under a lot of restrictions. The paperwork takes longer to fill out than it takes to drive a little farther. You just don't see Taylorcrafts in Class A, B or C airspace. I avoid anything that looks like an up side down pastry.
As for speed, yes, you can fly at 100 mph, but I usually don't since I like to enjoy the trip and if I was in a hurry I would buy a Delta ticket. A 300 mile trip takes 20 minutes longer at 90 than 100. I consider an extra 20 minutes in the air a blessing and I hate to burn more gas than I need to.
The BIG thing you need to do is get a flight in one. A lot of us have put on more weight than the planes have and the door of a T is a bit tight for some. DON'T be discouraged the first time. You have to learn to get in and out gracefully but we have plenty of 200+# owners (some WAY PLUS!) and it is actually easy once you "break the code". I was at 6'3" and 225# and had NO TROUBLE getting in and out, even with two bad knees. Another nice thing is the incentive to drop some flab. I took off over 25#. A 4 gallon increase of fuel capacity was a big incentive. That is an extra hour in the air!

I worked with the Cirrus while at NASA and it is a great plane, but the Taylorcraft is a whole different bird. Once you own a Taylorcraft the only time you look back is when you have to sell her.

Hank

[cvavon]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

First off welcome to the forum and i was born and raised in the Joliet area you can't go wrong with a tcraft they will out run most 65HP ships except Luscombe also with a up grade to 85HP the gross wt can be 1280. My owner assist annuals cost me $300.00 down here they are very cheep to own and fly 4 gl per hr 24 gl 5.5 hr x 95 522 mi with reserve

[Dennis Bute]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Thanks Hank. I'm 6'2" 190 but it may be tough to squeeze me and my 140# wife in. I see you are in Virginia Beach. My last trip with the family was Chicago to NY to Williamsburg and back to Chicago in the Cirrus in about 12 hours of flying over one week. Spent the day in VA Beach and it was nice. Speed is nice but it has it's price. I'm good with 90mph.

[Dennis Bute]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Thanks cvavon. I'd be all over the 85HP if there was one for sale but I haven't seen anyone willing to part with theirs yet. I drive through Joliet nearly everyday and I used to commute to work in the Cirrus from Illinois Valley Regional Airport to Schaumburg airport next to O'Hare surface Class B. I'd like to be able to continue commuting via plane but it gets pretty busy through there with Aurora Airport and DuPage. It's 1.5 hours to 2 hours in the car or 20 minutes in the Cirrus. Probably 45 in the the Tcraft but a lot to see and I'd rather be twice as long in the air than in a car in Chicago traffic.

Anyone in the area up for giving me that ride?

[cvavon]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Dennis
get on the site here and get a hold of Larry Lyons he is just north of you toward Rockford he is quite knowledgable on tcraft and very close to you may have a friend with one flying

Chuck

[Dennis Bute]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Thanks Chuck. Just sent him a message.

[lfries]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

If my math is correct with a 800lb Taylorcraft you would only be 2 lbs short of a full header tank (12 gal). There will be a placard stating no passengers with fuel in the wing tanks. I only have liab. ins. which is 302/yr. I think of what I paid for my Taylorcraft 24 years ago but probably need to start thinking of what it is worth today so I may go for hull next time around. I had hull for the 1st 6 months I owned it which I believe cost around an extra $300. If a starter is important then you do need to get the 85 with the 1,280 gross. Thats not all extra weight you can pack around but there must be some extra weight after the electrical system weight is added. The micro radios such as becker don't add a lot of weight. A radio and transponder would easily fit in the left side glove box. The cost of owner assisted annuals runs right along with what everyone is saying. Perhaps some of the LA Basin pilots can chime in on operating in congested airspace. Make sure a pre buy inspection is by a tube and fabric mechanic. You might also want to get a Taylorcraft pilot to fly it too. I did have a $1,200 annual once but that included OHing 4 cylinders. The IA did the removal and installation. Tires aren't On the runway very long on takeoff and your pretty slow when landing so they don't weart out as fast. My last set went 20 years. Still had tread and no wx checking. I bought mine because it cost way less than the others except for maybe an Aeronca Chief. I'm not sorry I went the less expensive route.

[Pearson]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

1. I see posts regarding $400 and $700 annuals and would like to inquire if that is extra cost after the base cost of $1,000 for the annual and then an additional $400 to $700 or is this all in?

Take your plane to someone who knows Taylorcraft for the annual. Don't let a Cirrus mechanic inspect a Taylorcraft unless he is experienced on Taylorcraft. If you can't find a mechanic experienced with Taylorcraft, at least find one that has inspected tube and fabric airplanes before.

2. What is typical payload?

An unmodified BC12D has a 1200 lb gross weight. Most of them weight between 780 to 810 lbs empty. A few weigh less, and a few weigh more.

3. I'd like built in radio, due to Chicago airspace, and am wondering how many BC12D's have them built in.

If you have a built in radio you will be worried about it when you fly out places you have never been. A quality hand held with an antenna mounted on the bottom of the boot cowl will transmit just as good as a panel mount.

4. What are people paying for annual insurance?

This will depend on your tail wheel experience. Most insurance companies want you to have at least ten hours in type. Premiums vary from year to year, but generally mine runs between $750 to $850 for full coverage.

5. Does anyone have any opinions on this plane? http://www.barnstormers.com/classifi...aft+BC12D.html

The plane in the ad looks nice, and has the new sealed struts, which is a good thing. But the ad says nothing about the time on the fabric. You can swap an engine in an afternoon, but a recover job takes months.

6. Does anyone want to weigh in on other BC12D's on the market?
http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=search

Contact me at neat1s @ yahoo . com , omit the spaces in the address.

7. Does anyone in the Chicago area want to give me my first ride in a Tcraft? PLEASE!! You can pretty much name the time and I'll do whatever I can to be there.

If you are ever out in the Pacific Northwest, I would be glad to take you up.

8. Can I get 100mph out of a 65hp BC12D? I've heard consistently 90mph but maybe not 100mph. There a few places around 300nm that I still like to visit.

I regularly see 93 mph when I am by myself, or around 90 if I have a passenger.

9. And lastly does anyone have a nice, but not too nice, BC12D for sale that's not listed?

Contact me at neat1s @ yahoo . com , omit the spaces in the address.

The Taylorcraft is an excellent first time tail wheel airplane. It is a little hard to get into, but I have developed a technique that works for me. I am 6'1". The two areas that, in my opinion, garner the most maintenance hours are the brakes and the exhaust. The Taylorcraft exhaust is unique in that it requires removal of the engine to install or exchange. I had to do this at an annual a couple of years ago and it wasn't as bad as I thought. Working by myself I had the engine off in about two hours and back on in about three. The brakes work well enough when everything is within tolerances. It just seems that often times owners don't keep them within tolerances. The primary reason I bought my Taylorcraft is the low cost of ownership. If you find a plane with good fabric and all ADs complied with, you have the foundation of a good airplane. You can find used or rebuilt A65s very reasonable. The 85 HP version will obviously cost more, but goes a little faster and often times has a higher gross weight. A word of caution, a lot of these planes have uncertified mods. If you look at an 85hp version, or even a 75hp version, make sure the mods are documented properly. Send me an email to the address above for more info.

[M Towsley]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Hi Dennis and welcome.

Can you tell the guys are bored? Good thing you popped up here.

I fly out of Springfield, IL Class C with a handheld and exterior antenna. I can talk to people over in Iowa and Missouri from 2,500 feet altitude. There is no reason why you would need an in-dash radio, battery and all of that junk. It just reduces your useful load. I have a waiver at Springfield for non-electric, no transponder. My annuals, owner assisted, are $250.00 without any problems found. You need to think way lower than Cirrus annuals, etc. Find an A&P/IA that won't rob you and knows rag and tube airplanes.

I am 180, wife 130, no problems whatsoever and that gives you a full main 12 gal tank depending upon the planes empty weight. I rarely use wing tanks as your bladder won't last long. 300 nm is a long way in one of these planes. I have never seen a placard about no passengers with wing tank usage, so that is new to me. 100 mph would not be realistic at all times. A lot of these planes are not rigged on-the-money which I think affects cruise speed. Winds really slow down your ground speed. A metal cruise prop will get you up there in speed, but don't plan on using short grass runways with it and two people, especially during warm weather. My current plane has a middle of the road wood prop, not climb and not cruise. I get 80 mph ground speed on average. Metal should bump you up about 10 mph. Your insurance will probably be around the same depending upon your experience in tailwheel airplanes.

Go here to see a video I did on one method of getting into a Taylorcraft: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTQD_yPybok

Best of luck to you and please use the search function on this site. You can find lots of answers to your questions from years and years of experience.

[Windknot]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Go here to see a video I did on one method of getting into a Taylorcraft: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTQD_yPybok

.

Marty - Sorry for the thread drift, but I just realized (after reading your post above) that YOU'RE the guy that made that video!!!!

I thank you. My fused spine thanks you. My 267# frame thanks you (I've lost weight since then, but that was my heaviest) My 83 y/o instructor who soloed on his 16th birthday in 1946 in a brand new 1946 BC12-D PROBABLY thanks you - he'd NEVER seen anyone get into a T'Craft like me before. I always caught him staring at me when I was getting in and I just thought he was watching the controls. Finally, one day he stood outside and watched me get in - I repeated it several times. I finally gave him a link to the video. THEN he got it. Now he shows EVERYONE how to get in that way.

Greatest piece of advice I've ever seen about T'Crafts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[M Towsley]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

It was shown to me by the owner of my first Taylorcraft. I just took it a step further, (after numerous takes), to share with my fellow T-Craft addicts. It makes me feel good the effort helped. Such a simple way to do it, and it works!

[jim cooper]

Re: Trying to get back to basic flying

Hi dennis......what ever you buy be sure someone you know, familiar with taildraggers goes over it carefully, checking the paperwork carefully as well. I just sold a VERY nice, award winning BC12D 65 HP for 21,500.00. As I was tired of propping it especially in cold weather. If you are not restricted by medical and can choose , I would also definitely consider a Luscombe 8F! It's a great little airplane, fun to fly! Good looking and should run around 28-30 grand. If in very nice shape, well cared for. Good luck jim C. (Should include strobes, metal prop, good radio, transponder, etc.)