Opinions needed

[cvavon]

Re: Opinions needed

Get your wife a pilots license so she can feel the fun of flying and life gets easier at home.

[Chris]

Re: Opinions needed

Well Im very fortunate in the fact that she enjoys aviation as much as I do. I also have a 6 year old daughter (Taylor, yes that was on purpose) who also is very interested and a 8 week old son who doesn't know it yet but he's very interested as well.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Opinions needed

Sounds like a future 4 place Taylorcraft owner!

Hank

As for painting a dirty plane, it works fine, IF you can get the fabric clean first (assuming you are talking about the second plane here with fabric but no chemicals applied yet). If the fabric has coatings on the fabric already you can clean it for a nice finish. If you are talking about a cover job where no chemicals are on yet the dirt will get down in the fibers and I don't know how you can clean it out for good adhesion. Not that it can't be done. There might be ways to do it, but I don't have any idea how. If someone has cleaned fabric on a plane prior to chemicals please let me know how. Always want to steal new knowledge!

[Ryan]

Re: Opinions needed

Hi all,

I see in a few posts that "regs" are referred to that specify a top coat.

I am not sure that I am following. What "regs" are being talked about?



I also saw references to years like '89, '01. Are you referencing a change to some part of the FARs?



My familiarity with this kind of discussion is limited to what process & materials are called out by an STC for example. (Or a standard doping process)

Is that what you guys are talking about? If so what does that have to due with some specific year? I would think that the specific STC is all that prevails.

Dave

Hi Dave, I think you are correct. It is the STC they are referencing. My poly fiber manual revised after 2001 requires use of poly fiber products through top coat or STC is void. Prior you had some leeway in top coats.

[skip]

Re: Opinions needed

Sounds like a future 4 place Taylorcraft owner!

Hank

As for painting a dirty plane, it works fine, IF you can get the fabric clean first (assuming you are talking about the second plane here with fabric but no chemicals applied yet). If the fabric has coatings on the fabric already you can clean it for a nice finish. If you are talking about a cover job where no chemicals are on yet the dirt will get down in the fibers and I don't know how you can clean it out for good adhesion. Not that it can't be done. There might be ways to do it, but I don't have any idea how. If someone has cleaned fabric on a plane prior to chemicals please let me know how. Always want to steal new knowledge!

I just did my wings with the Stewarts Systems process. They require a cleaning with their special cleaner on the bare fabric before any fillers. The stated purpose is specifically to get all the fingerprints and ground-in dirt out of the fibres for initial adhesion. The cleaner, EcoClean is thinned 15-1 with water and then rubbed on with a wetted terry-cloth towel. Then it is rinsed with a second towel soaked with clean water and rung out. In their instruction DVD they show the amount of dirt and crud that they get out of a single panel with this process. When I did mine, I didn't get as much crud as they did, but then I was fairly careful to stay clean when I put on the fabric.

By the way, I really like the Stewarts Systems stuff. I have done some Stitts before, and the new water-borne stuff is really wonderful. It all went on well just like their instructions. My only trouble has been trying to do their final top coat with my $40 Harbour Freight gun. The gun worked fine for the fill coats, but for the final polyurethane (EcoPoly), it gave a wonderful even regular orange peel. Not enough atomization and not enough regular fan pattern. Fortunately a day of sanding and a re-shoot with my brand new DeVilbiss Finishline-4 made a much better job. Well, can't say I wasn't warned...

[Chris]

Re: Opinions needed

There is a beautiful 4 place Taylorcraft here at Culpeper. That would be a fun airplane.

[Guest]

Re: Opinions needed

Hi Dave, I think you are correct. It is the STC they are referencing. My poly fiber manual revised after 2001 requires use of poly fiber products through top coat or STC is void. Prior you had some leeway in top coats.

Thanks Ryan, Dave.

[Guest]

Re: Opinions needed

I just did my wings with the Stewarts Systems process. They require a cleaning with their special cleaner on the bare fabric before any fillers. The stated purpose is specifically to get all the fingerprints and ground-in dirt out of the fibres for initial adhesion. The cleaner, EcoClean is thinned 15-1 with water and then rubbed on with a wetted terry-cloth towel. Then it is rinsed with a second towel soaked with clean water and rung out. In their instruction DVD they show the amount of dirt and crud that they get out of a single panel with this process. When I did mine, I didn't get as much crud as they did, but then I was fairly careful to stay clean when I put on the fabric.

By the way, I really like the Stewarts Systems stuff. I have done some Stitts before, and the new water-borne stuff is really wonderful. It all went on well just like their instructions. My only trouble has been trying to do their final top coat with my $40 Harbour Freight gun. The gun worked fine for the fill coats, but for the final polyurethane (EcoPoly), it gave a wonderful even regular orange peel. Not enough atomization and not enough regular fan pattern. Fortunately a day of sanding and a re-shoot with my brand new DeVilbiss Finishline-4 made a much better job. Well, can't say I wasn't warned...

Hi Skip,

What is the cost of the Stewart's System, fabric and "dope"?

Can I use ceconite 101 envelopes that I have on hand now with their "dope"?

Dave.

[TimHicks]

Re: Opinions needed

When I started my re-covering project almost 3 years ago, I got a quote from Sterwart Systems for enough fabric, tapes, glue, paint to recover the entire plane with a 2-tone paint scheme.
I don't have the quote in front of me now. But my memory says that it was about $3300 in early 2011.

[skip]

Re: Opinions needed

Hi Skip,

What is the cost of the Stewart's System, fabric and "dope"?

Can I use ceconite 101 envelopes that I have on hand now with their "dope"?

Dave.

Dave,

This is off the top of my head, but here goes:

Any certified fabric can be used. I used Superflite fabric and Ceconite tape. Fabric, tapes, inspection rings, etc came to about $400. A roll of NOS taylorcraft wire from some kind person on the net (thanks again!) was $220.
I used the blanket method rather than envelopes, but the envelopes should work fine and should be legal under their STC as they say that any certified fabric is legal. Their glue is brushed down through the fabric weave and then the surface excess wiped off with a shop towel.

I used a little over a gallon of the glue for my two wings and ailerons for all fabric and tapes. this included a layer of Polyester batting on the leading edges. If your leading edges are clean enough to not use the Polyester buffer, then a gallon is plenty. That said, I really like how the polyester batting layer gave a nice smooth leading edge with no screw heads or joints showing.A gallon is a bit under $200.A quart is $55.

The cleaner is next, and doesn't take much. A quart is plenty at $14.00.

The fill (EcoFill) is both a filler and UV block that uses carbon powder rather than aluminium powder for the UV block. So it is used like a combination of PolyBrush and PolySpray in the Stitts process. The first coat is brushed into the weave, and then spray coats are added and sanded.

I used about a gallon and a quart of the EcoFill for the two wings and ailerons. Total of about $230.

Finally the topcoat of their Polyurathane (EcoPoly). They want four coats applied as two cross coats. A gallon is just barely enough for two wings and ailerons. I would count on a gallon and a quart. The "kit" includes enough paint and then enough catalyst to make a gallon (or quart for the quart kit). Cost depends on colour. My Insignia White was about $280 a gallon. Other colours can top $300. But it seems like a really good paint. My experience says that getting an extra quart for some practice panels is a really good idea. The paint is just different enough from stuff like imron that some practice is useful and in my case would have saved a lot of sanding and a second gallon of paint.

My total cost for materials was about $1500 (not counting the second gallon of paint to fix my screw-ups). The Stewart Systems stuff was about $900 of that. (rough numbers).

The process differs from Stitts or Dope in a few places. Their instructional DVD is very complete and a good tutorial.

It was also really nice to be able to work with open-flame propane heaters going and glue the fabric and tapes with no mask or gloves. The only time a mask is really needed is the final color coat. Even though there is no MEK or Acetone to filter out, the paint is still catalized with iso-Cyanide like any other poly. So a good respirator is needed there.

[skip]

Re: Opinions needed

Hi Skip,

What is the cost of the Stewart's System, fabric and "dope"?

Can I use ceconite 101 envelopes that I have on hand now with their "dope"?

Dave.

Oh yes, and to emphasize, the cost in my previous post is WINGS only. Adding the fuesalage would double that.
The "common knowledge" that everyone seems to quote is that a cover job is roughly $3500 materials and $20000 in labour. My numbers support this..

[Guest]

Re: Opinions needed

Thanks guys!

Dave

[Robert Lees]

Re: Opinions needed

{snip} poly fiber manual revised after 2001 {/snip}.

As of August 2013, the latest version of the PolyFiber manual is September 2006. Any covering on a certified aircraft with PF after that date needs to comply with that manual, and referenced in the logs.

(For comparison, the Ceconite/Randolph manual latest edition is June 2008, again as of Aug 2013)

[N96337]

Re: Opinions needed

I see in a few posts that "regs" are referred to that specify a top coat.

I am not sure that I am following. What "regs" are being talked about?

I also saw references to years like '89, '01. Are you referencing a change to some part of the FARs?

My familiarity with this kind of discussion is limited to what process & materials are called out by an STC for example. (Or a standard doping process)

Is that what you guys are talking about? If so what does that have to due with some specific year? I would think that the specific STC is all that prevails.

Dave

Dave, sorry I haven't been on here to answer sooner. My reference to "regs" is actually a little off...it was a "policy change" according to the FAA. In about 1999, they contacted all fabric STC holders and notified them that a "policy change" was about to take place, wherein they would be required to certify the process through top coat. This was to combat the multitude of problems that were arising from people using all sorts of paint to finish a fabric job, and then having premature degradation of the fabric, due to a topcoat problem. It was to take effect in 2001. If you read the actual FAR's, you wont find that stated...it's not a "FAR" so to speak.
Now, to realize the application of this, if you read in the FAR's as well as any of the STC's, you will find that in order to legally repair any of these systems, you must follow the latest revision to the specified manual for that STC, which are all past 2001. Right off the top of my head, Ceconite's latest manual revision is somewhere in 2008? If you do anything to a Ceconite job and don't follow that manual, you're in violation.
In doing a policy change, the FAA and STC holders didn't have to go through all the process of recertification of the system. At the time this was being enacted, I was working on the AFS STC (now Stewarts System), as up to that point, it was a revision of the Ceconite STC. As usual, it's a bunch of bureaucratic BS, but was the easiest and most streamlined way for them to get a change done. (I'm hoping I have all the numbers and stuff right, as I'm doing this from memory....and my memory isn't what it used to be!!!)
Does that help?
John

[Guest]

Re: Opinions needed

Dave, sorry I haven't been on here to answer sooner. My reference to "regs" is actually a little off...it was a "policy change" according to the FAA. In about 1999, they contacted all fabric STC holders and notified them that a "policy change" was about to take place, wherein they would be required to certify the process through top coat. This was to combat the multitude of problems that were arising from people using all sorts of paint to finish a fabric job, and then having premature degradation of the fabric, due to a topcoat problem. It was to take effect in 2001. If you read the actual FAR's, you wont find that stated...it's not a "FAR" so to speak.
Now, to realize the application of this, if you read in the FAR's as well as any of the STC's, you will find that in order to legally repair any of these systems, you must follow the latest revision to the specified manual for that STC, which are all past 2001. Right off the top of my head, Ceconite's latest manual revision is somewhere in 2008? If you do anything to a Ceconite job and don't follow that manual, you're in violation.
In doing a policy change, the FAA and STC holders didn't have to go through all the process of recertification of the system. At the time this was being enacted, I was working on the AFS STC (now Stewarts System), as up to that point, it was a revision of the Ceconite STC. As usual, it's a bunch of bureaucratic BS, but was the easiest and most streamlined way for them to get a change done. (I'm hoping I have all the numbers and stuff right, as I'm doing this from memory....and my memory isn't what it used to be!!!)
Does that help?
John

Hi John,

That helps.

Thanks John.

Dave