'39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

[NC22211]

Going to the gang one more time for assistance:

Our '39 BL/BC65 was Forest Green fuselage with International Orange wings. As we've stripped off layers in the rebuild, it appears this was its original paint, so back on it will go. What we don't know is how the trim paint was applied to 1939 T-craft.

Would the horizontal tail surfaces have been painted to match the wings in Orange, and the vertical tail match the fuselage in Green? This is what the old b/w photos seem to indicate. Or would the entire empennage have been green?

We know there is a green leading edge stripe on the orange wings, standard Taylorcraft. What we can't determine is whether there is a corresponding stripe wrapping around the horizontal tail leading edge. Also, is there a leading edge stripe on the vertical fin? All these leading edge stripes appear to be present in some of the b/w vintage photos, but absent in others. Is there someone out there who has researched the paint patterns for the pre-war BL/BC's and wishes to kick in some advice??

Anyone ever seen a dark green and international orange Taylorcraft? This plane flew until '54, has been parked ever since. It had a white layer doped over the green on the boot cowl, but the wings and tail were uncovered, with only traces of orange in obscure places. There is no mention in the logs of a recover or a repaint, so we are anticipating these colors are original.

Another Problem Area: In the bucket of parts labelled 'tailwheel', we find several questions. The Taylorcraft logo steering fork and the solid 6 x 2 tailwheel are present. There is a tail spring set, 1 1/4" wide, with a "U" shaped reducer plate to make the narrower springs fit the 1 1/2" shoe plate in the tail wheel. We know these came off our bird and they are in perfect condition, but the gang here says the springs should be 1 1/2". What do we have here?

Along those lines: There is no tail spring bracket for attaching the spring at the tailpost fitting. It looks like it should be a modified "U" shaped bracket to fit up the spring sides with ears on each side for the attach bolts. It is an easy fix if that's all there was. The problem is in how the spring was cushioned at the tail post bracket. There are three little nibs sticking down from the bracket. They appear to have been designed to hold a rubber bumper in place, which would make a lot of sense. We were considering wrapping the entire spring set in rubber at the attach point, trapping the rubber in place with the "U" bracket. What did the factory do to buffer the spring set from the tail post?

Is there a beacon of light out in this desert of unknowns? I'm getting to know how St. Exupery must have felt when he was posted as station manager at Cap Juby in the Western Sahara! Wandering in circles in the dark, searching for downed air mail pilots, dodging bullets from hostile tribesmen. Well, maybe it's not that bad here, but it really is like having sand in your drawers on that long drive back from the beach!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Are you SURE yours was Orange and Forest Green? That was the colors of my 41 when I bought it and I have to be honest, there was a pool of puke in front of my hangar from people who looked in and weren't ready for the sight. I am not joking that I was voted the UGLIEST Taylorcraft in the Tribe several years in a row and only lost out to a plane abandoned next to a hangar with a TREE growing through the fuselage!
I have lots of documentation at home on colors for different years and don't remember green and orange (although I really wasn't looking that hard at the ones from before 41).
When I took the paint off a lot of parts on mine I found Maroon and Taylorcraft Ivory under the later paint and those colors WERE listed in the available colors. If you actually LIKE green and orange, I would suggest building one of the little Comet models and painting it in your color layout to see what it will look like. I did that on a rainy weekend and it has been hanging over my desk for years. If I can't fly, I can at least look up at "my plane" doing slow turns over my head. Sure was a LOT cheaper than a repaint of the full size plane!
Hank

[Ragwing nut]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Going to the gang one more time for assistance:

Our '39 BL/BC65 was Forest Green fuselage with International Orange wings. As we've stripped off layers in the rebuild, it appears this was its original paint, so back on it will go. What we don't know is how the trim paint was applied to 1939 T-craft.

Would the horizontal tail surfaces have been painted to match the wings in Orange, and the vertical tail match the fuselage in Green? This is what the old b/w photos seem to indicate. Or would the entire empennage have been green?

We know there is a green leading edge stripe on the orange wings, standard Taylorcraft. What we can't determine is whether there is a corresponding stripe wrapping around the horizontal tail leading edge. Also, is there a leading edge stripe on the vertical fin? All these leading edge stripes appear to be present in some of the b/w vintage photos, but absent in others. Is there someone out there who has researched the paint patterns for the pre-war BL/BC's and wishes to kick in some advice??

Anyone ever seen a dark green and international orange Taylorcraft? This plane flew until '54, has been parked ever since. It had a white layer doped over the green on the boot cowl, but the wings and tail were uncovered, with only traces of orange in obscure places. There is no mention in the logs of a recover or a repaint, so we are anticipating these colors are original.

Another Problem Area: In the bucket of parts labelled 'tailwheel', we find several questions. The Taylorcraft logo steering fork and the solid 6 x 2 tailwheel are present. There is a tail spring set, 1 1/4" wide, with a "U" shaped reducer plate to make the narrower springs fit the 1 1/2" shoe plate in the tail wheel. We know these came off our bird and they are in perfect condition, but the gang here says the springs should be 1 1/2". What do we have here?

Along those lines: There is no tail spring bracket for attaching the spring at the tailpost fitting. It looks like it should be a modified "U" shaped bracket to fit up the spring sides with ears on each side for the attach bolts. It is an easy fix if that's all there was. The problem is in how the spring was cushioned at the tail post bracket. There are three little nibs sticking down from the bracket. They appear to have been designed to hold a rubber bumper in place, which would make a lot of sense. We were considering wrapping the entire spring set in rubber at the attach point, trapping the rubber in place with the "U" bracket. What did the factory do to buffer the spring set from the tail post?

Is there a beacon of light out in this desert of unknowns? I'm getting to know how St. Exupery must have felt when he was posted as station manager at Cap Juby in the Western Sahara! Wandering in circles in the dark, searching for downed air mail pilots, dodging bullets from hostile tribesmen. Well, maybe it's not that bad here, but it really is like having sand in your drawers on that long drive back from the beach!

if the wings were orange then the hozizontals and elevators will be as well. No leading edge strip on tail with two tone.

1-1/2" tail springs are later design, 1-1/4" should be correct. What tail wheel do you have? Should be a steerable only, non full swivel. The original tailwheel should have Taylorcraft cast into the steering arms.

I have seen Green and orange before, but not on a taylorcraft. I think it was a company color, maybe on a Waco somewhere

[NC22211]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

OK! Puke is not my vision of a color scheme, but we're going ahead with the Dark green and international oragne any way. Sure wish Chet Peek or Forrest would chime in here on pre-war colors of green and orange! Any other old timers (meaning older than me!) who were leaning over airport fences before the war?

Mike - thanks for the springs update. We must have the originals, then. Also, we have the steerable, non-full swivel, cast Taylorcraft-logo steering arm, solid tire original.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

OK! Puke is not my vision of a color scheme, but we're going ahead with the Dark green and international oragne any way. Sure wish Chet Peek or Forrest would chime in here on pre-war colors of green and orange! Any other old timers (meaning older than me!) who were leaning over airport fences before the war?

Mike - thanks for the springs update. We must have the originals, then. Also, we have the steerable, non-full swivel, cast Taylorcraft-logo steering arm, solid tire original.

Then everything you have is correct.

Green and orange is one of those combos if it is a tired bird lloks like crap, but, done very nice, it will look great and attrack alot of attention

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Got to admit my 41 was VERY tired when it was green and orange, and it REALLY looked like crap.
I actually had two times that perfect strangers stopped in front of my hangar to ask me if I knew how ugly my plane was! Asked one of them if he was in the habit of asking women with ugly babies if they knew their kid was ugly, and HE GOT INSULTED!
The other one asked why the h**l I didn't just paint it, (while I was repacking the wheel bearings) and I told him I planned to paint the top of the cowl and bottoms of the wings real soon. He asked about the rest of the plane and I said that from the inside I couldn't see the rest and didn't really GIVE A FLIP! I asked him what color HIS plane was and he said he rented. Told him that I guess that makes my plane better looking than his. (He was renting C-150s) He left in a huff too.
You knew the good ones when they came in and ran their hand over the top longeron, and looked down the arrow straight trailing edges. They knew it was ugly, I knew it was ugly (hell, EVERYBODY knew it was ugly) but they had the class to look beyond the top layer of old paint and compliment the BEAUTIFUL wood prop and the fact that it was a solid, well maintained old airplane.
Hank
She was BUTT UGLY, and I loved her. Now she is all repainted, beautiful, returned to original configuration, and I love her that much more (plus no one pukes in front of my hangar any more). The people who knew and loved her in the ugly times are the ones who will get rides now.

[bobp]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Hank, Does it say anything in the info you have on paint jobs for 41's about brown and yellow? bobp

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

I haven't found any information on 39 colors (but that isn't surprising, it took me years to get proof of correct colors for my 41 and 45). The original colors for the 41 Deluxe were (in upper, lower & dividing trim line order) Ivory, Blue & Black...Yellow, Black & White...Ivory, Maroon & Black...Red, Black & Gold...and Yellow, Blue & Black. There were several slightly different layouts in 41 and I have some drawings taken from original scheme photos that were confirmed by a painter who worked at the factory before and after the war. I have verified color samples of the Ivory and Maroon (as well as the post war blue).
When you work the fuselage, check in the nooks and crannies of the tube clusters for small chips of paint. That was my first clue to my original colors. Later I found matches to the colors on places like the front face of the fuel tank, some wood trim pieces and inside the doors. Once you have an idea what colors you are looking for lots of spots start showing up.
Hank
By the way, the Taylorcraft Ivory was the hardest to "PROVE" because so many companies claim to have the original formula. I verified it with original 1945 pieces of fabric that had been covered since original (like inside of a stab with original fabric. I used three parts from three different parts of the country, the last being a 45 aileron that had been in a barn since 1946. The exterior was WAY off, but the fabric on the inside that had runs from the outside matched perfectly.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Bob,
Check out eBay item number 360122937998 . It's a 39 advertisment with some good pictures of the color layout, panel, and interior (looks to be a B&W picture but it has the layout). Eight bucks as a buy it now!
Hank

[Ragwing nut]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

I haven't found any information on 39 colors (but that isn't surprising, it took me years to get proof of correct colors for my 41 and 45). The original colors for the 41 Deluxe were (in upper, lower & dividing trim line order) Ivory, Blue & Black...Yellow, Black & White...Ivory, Maroon & Black...Red, Black & Gold...and Yellow, Blue & Black. There were several slightly different layouts in 41 and I have some drawings taken from original scheme photos that were confirmed by a painter who worked at the factory before and after the war. I have verified color samples of the Ivory and Maroon (as well as the post war blue).
When you work the fuselage, check in the nooks and crannies of the tube clusters for small chips of paint. That was my first clue to my original colors. Later I found matches to the colors on places like the front face of the fuel tank, some wood trim pieces and inside the doors. Once you have an idea what colors you are looking for lots of spots start showing up.
Hank
By the way, the Taylorcraft Ivory was the hardest to "PROVE" because so many companies claim to have the original formula. I verified it with original 1945 pieces of fabric that had been covered since original (like inside of a stab with original fabric. I used three parts from three different parts of the country, the last being a 45 aileron that had been in a barn since 1946. The exterior was WAY off, but the fabric on the inside that had runs from the outside matched perfectly.

If you have a Lloyd Berryman chart, you could cross reference with what is currently available. They are rare and almost impossible to find. I have only seen 1 or 2 in the last 20 years. I found Randolph to be more accurate than others

[mulwyk]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Thanks for the tip on the eBay ad, Hank. Interesting.

I think I like the simple tail-to-boot-cowl stripe shown in the ad better than the typical flying diamond stripe that we see so often. I'd like to use it on my project. Anyone have an idea of maximum thickness of that stripe?

Very difficult to tell color from a B&W photo, but someone once told me that red registers as black on those old films, so it's probably not red. Blue or maybe green.

BTW, if you click on "Go to Sellers Store" and then type "Taylorcraft" in the sellers search box, you can see 27 other Taylorcraft ads that he has for sale.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Be careful with any paint manufacturer on whether a color is accurate. Randolph SWORE that Taylorcraft Ivory is now Diana Cream and that they were the original suppliers to the factory. IT IS NOT!! I have PILES of samples from old planes and NONE of the old factory fabric has anything that looks anything like Diana Cream. There is LOTS of Diana Cream on old WACO parts, but NOT on Taylorcrafts.
I have no stake in their company except as a customer, but Jim & Dondi Miller (Poly-Fiber & Ceconite Distributors (Toll Free) (877) 877-3334 Web Site: www.polyfiber.com www.aircrafttechsupport.com) have been GREAT to work with. Really first class operation and they will custom mix dope to the color you want. They have the mix specs already for Taylorcraft Ivory, Maroon and the post war Metallic Blue.
Hank

[Ragwing nut]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Be careful with any paint manufacturer on whether a color is accurate. Randolph SWORE that Taylorcraft Ivory is now Diana Cream and that they were the original suppliers to the factory. IT IS NOT!! I have PILES of samples from old planes and NONE of the old factory fabric has anything that looks anything like Diana Cream. There is LOTS of Diana Cream on old WACO parts, but NOT on Taylorcrafts.
I have no stake in their company except as a customer, but Jim & Dondi Miller (Poly-Fiber & Ceconite Distributors (Toll Free) (877) 877-3334 Web Site: www.polyfiber.com www.aircrafttechsupport.com) have been GREAT to work with. Really first class operation and they will custom mix dope to the color you want. They have the mix specs already for Taylorcraft Ivory, Maroon and the post war Metallic Blue.
Hank

I didn't say Randolph was correct on Ivory, just that alot of their colors are. And i doubt they were suppliers to many companies in the 40's as Berryman was supreme then. Jim and Dondi are some of the nicest people you will deal with. I call them once or twice a year and they know who i am every time I call them.

[NC36061]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

Bob,

The FOUNDATION has asserted before that the original factory records are available and can be researched with your serial and N# to find the original colors...Have you contacted the FOUNDATION directly???

Dave

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: '39 Paint Scheme and Other Quandries

I forgot all about that, yea, you should hit Forrest with a request with your aircraft ID info and he should be able to tell you what colors were used originally. Once you know the original model and equipage I may be able to pull an old photo with the color layout.
Hank
You ARE a foundation member, RIGHT?