First Taylorcraft annual

[VanDy]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Drop a Taylorcraft off and come back later to pick it up, $600 +repairs
Owner assisted depends on how much the owner assists! (show up, BS and drink coffee all day, it ill still be a $600 'owner assisted annual'

I always explain to a new customer, or one with a plane that I haven't seen before.... The first annual I do will take more time than the following annuals, because I have to go through very thoroughly and check out everything previously done to the aircraft for compliance. Once I get through that one, I already can look at something like a previous mod or repair and know that I've already checked it out. Same goes with the logs.... I will have already checked compliance of previous AD's etc. That saves quite a bit of time on the following annuals. If your mechanic isn't spending extra time checking things like that, they aren't doing their job. Just because it's been signed off or has flown like that for years, doesn't mean that it's ok. There's lots of factors that can influence how long things take. Find a mechanic that will spend a little time getting to know you and knows old airplanes...it'll save you aggravation and money in the long run!
John

x3

Doing annuals as a group works REALLY well! You can usually get a great discount and it is a blast being with 4 or 5 other owners all looking at each others planes. We used to like to see if we could go though each others planes so well the IA couldn't find anything. It is also good to show the IA where problems could be. EVERYBODY wins!
You can easily do half a dozen Annuals in a day working together and it is a whole lot more fun. The IA won't have to do all that much since everything is fully laid out for him. For him it is easy money.

Hank

I don't think I'd be up for that from an IA standpoint. But if it works well for you and your IA im not gonna stop you!
Maybe if I had done the airplanes individually in times past. Seems like it may bring some unwanted attention, or maybe im just cautious.

[VanDy]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Could you send a copy to me at [email protected] please. Thanks!

I adjusted the original Taylorcraft inspection information that is in one of the old reprint manuals. I updated it for equipment and the times of today, not 70 years ago. I can e-mail that to you to give you and your mechanic an idea to start from. Send me your e-mail through a PM.

Just for my satisfaction I go through the complete list and do the items I can do with my A&P/IA going over things once we get down to he and I going over the plane. Removing inspection plates, floor boards, etc., is easy stuff you can do to save time, (and money), and it also helps you understand the systems of the plane, limited that they are.

I like to know how everything works. Too many of my fellow pilots have no knowledge of the planes they own or fly, just knowing when they turn the key it is supposed to start. (Or in our case flip the prop).

[Joe cooper]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Thanks guys for the information. I have looked at two shops so far and will continue to check out others.

Thanks again,
Danny

Hi Danny. I've owned three Taylorcrafts ( plus champs, j3, etc. ) over the years, the last tcraft being a trophy winner. Always keep in mind that they are OLD, and that the people who worked on them a lot are also old.....or dead. .. They are a very simple, basic airplane and in the hands of someone well versed on them , easy to inspect and repair. It's getting hard to find the " old pros" who did these annuals so often over the years that it became second nature. As these fellows die off, finding the right mechanic becomes more difficult but not impossible. I would take the inspection plates off and get the hell out of the way by order of the fellow who inspected it. He always maintained that I would simply be in the way and probably screw something up. It usually cost around 300 bucks plus lunch and took about 4 hours. He would have thrown me out of the hangar had I mentioned "a group" annual. He passed away last year. I sold the airplane.

[Garry Crookham]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

You can easily do half a dozen Annuals in a day working together and it is a whole lot more fun. The IA won't have to do all that much since everything is fully laid out for him. For him it is easy money.

Hank

Really! Six annuals in a day! Any IA that signs off six annuals in one day won't be an IA for long.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Remember he does not disassemble anything or do the set up for looking at it. He walks up and the first compression test an it is all set up by the group. He simply does the actual check and then while he is doing the next one the test gear from the first is being jumped to the third. Same for inspecting the wings. The covers are all removed and he walks from one to the next doing the inspections. The longest and hardest part is still the logs and checking the paper but I am working on that now to try and set up a standardized system. I want a notebook with copies of all the Major repairs and alterations showing the dates and pages in the logs, all AD's, STC's, 337's, and TSO and PMA parts since last annual. With everyone using the same book layout with all the paperwork in order and a checklist for the planes you can save a LOT of time. To me the best thing is you have multiple OWNERS looking at ALL of the planes. We not only check our own but each others looking for ANY item that could be wrong. If anything is found on one plane ALL are checked for the same problem, and they are checked by people who know the planes intimately.
When all of the planes are finished they are put back together by the group and inspected for proper closure before the IA does the final check and each plane is flown. Walking down a line and looking at 12 brakes, then 6 props then 6 panel markings etc. is MUCH faster and more efficient than doing everything on one plane then doing the whole thing again on the next one. I think the most I have actually seen it done on was 3 or maybe 4, but it sure seems scalable to me. It will be a while before we try it again since we need to get a group together.

Hank

[Garry Crookham]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

The longest and hardest part is still the logs and checking the paper but I am working on that now to try and set up a standardized system. I want a notebook with copies of all the Major repairs and alterations showing the dates and pages in the logs, all AD's, STC's, 337's, and TSO and PMA parts since last annual.

I guess I'm missing something here. As an IA I do not allow the aircraft owner tell me how I will inspect his/her aircraft. Over many years I have developed my own system, it works for me, and meets the requirements of FAR Part 43, i.e 43.11, 43.15, and Appendix D of Part 43. I'm sure your intentions are honorable but I do not think that any IA will buy into this. And once again any IA who signs off six airplanes in one day won't be an IA for long.

[3Dreaming]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

I guess I'm missing something here. As an IA I do not allow the aircraft owner tell me how I will inspect his/her aircraft. Over many years I have developed my own system, it works for me, and meets the requirements of FAR Part 43, i.e 43.11, 43.15, and Appendix D of Part 43. I'm sure your intentions are honorable but I do not think that any IA will buy into this. And once again any IA who signs off six airplanes in one day won't be an IA for long.

I agree with Gary that a person can't do the rquired inspection items on 6 airplanes in a day, even if the owners do the disassembly and assembly. I know the Taylorcraft is a simple airplane, I don't think those who who say they get get their inspection done in 4 hours are getting the items required to be looked at inspected.

[Guest]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

I agree with Gary that a person can't do the rquired inspection items on 6 airplanes in a day, even if the owners do the disassembly and assembly. I know the Taylorcraft is a simple airplane, I don't think those who who say they get get their inspection done in 4 hours are getting the items required to be looked at inspected.

Amen to what Garry and Tom (3Dreaming) said.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

No one is telling the IA how to do it. We are ASKING him what he needs and making sure my plane is set up so it is as easy as possible to do the inspection. I will be getting with him with any additional items OTHER owners and IA's think are a good idea to look at. It IS his decision what he looks at, but there is NO LIMIT to how much an owner can add to the inspection. There are implied and required minimums, but the way the FAA presents it is sure not done to make it consistent.

The whole purpose of this exercise is to get the best possible annual, not to see how many can be done at once. We want to look for ANY discrepancy and find it before it causes a problem. If one is found we should be sharing it here so everyone else can go and look for it. We don't need another idiotic strut fiasco.

Why all the focus from the "Nay Sayers" on how many planes get done? It isn't a race, it is a process to get us better inspections so we have safer planes without burning out the IA. I really don't care if it is one or a hundred planes, each gets the best annual possible and more eyes will find more problems. The IA is just teh one who documents them. WE gather around a problem and discuss it. Then we take it to the IA for disposition. The idea is NOT to cluster around him, getting in his way, unless he needs a hand.

How about some examples of annual check lists to get this right rather than a bunch of attacks because you think there is some magic number of panes that can be done at once? With a standardized "GUIDE" (he doesn't HAVE to use it) any IA can build his own process and may well find something he didn't think of. HE doesn't HAVE TO use it, but I personally would welcome some guidance, especially if my normal trade didn't include a tube and rag, much less a Taylorcraft. WE are probably the best knowledge base for Taylorcrafts in the world. Let's open that up to ANYONE who wants to use it.

Hank

[Guest]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Hi Hank,

Well the reason for focus on the number of planes that can be inspected is because you stated this "You can easily do half a dozen Annuals in a day" and some IA's don't accept it. Its that simple in my mind.

Please notice that the nay sayers (that is people that say no to the premise) are for the most part IA's (I don't know if Tom is an IA).

Who is "We" in this discussion? You said this; "We are ASKING him...", who are you including in we and who are you speaking for?

I don't perceive the discussion as an argument in the emotional sense but it appears that IA's are not in favor of the premise.


Dave

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

I guess this is one of those cases where a lack of face to face can cause written statements to "sound" different to the reader. I didn't intend my statements to sound argumentative either.
The "we" in my statement is other people who have wanted to get some regional groups started again. We used to have a fairly active Virginia Carolina's Taylorcraft group here and it has gone dry. I would like to get it started again as the Mid-Atlantic Taylorcraft region since some of the people who were interested were as far west as Kentucky, Tennessee and Illinois and as far north as Maryland and Delaware and south as South Carolina.
I am using my plane as a "test case" to try and establish a guideline for annuals on the older Taylorcrafts. There are just not that many IAs around any more that know our planes. No one can MAKE an IA do an annual a specific way, but a guide would be pretty useful to a guy who had never worked on anything but "Spam cans". If an IA doesn't WANT to use a guide, it isn't like it is a requirement.

Hank

[Mark Julicher]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Hank,
As long as your guide encompasses the requirements of CFR 43 Appendix D it should be fine.
Having said that, I don't think I ever completed an owner assisted Taylorcraft annual in less than 7 hours, longer if I have not seen the plane before and double that time if the owner has never assisted before.

I just went two months of back and forth defending myself over a suspected incorrect part and it was not something that I installed. IAs are always one hard landing away from an investigation.

[Guest]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

I guess this is one of those cases where a lack of face to face can cause written statements to "sound" different to the reader. I didn't intend my statements to sound argumentative either.
The "we" in my statement is other people who have wanted to get some regional groups started again. We used to have a fairly active Virginia Carolina's Taylorcraft group here and it has gone dry. I would like to get it started again as the Mid-Atlantic Taylorcraft region since some of the people who were interested were as far west as Kentucky, Tennessee and Illinois and as far north as Maryland and Delaware and south as South Carolina.
I am using my plane as a "test case" to try and establish a guideline for annuals on the older Taylorcrafts. There are just not that many IAs around any more that know our planes. No one can MAKE an IA do an annual a specific way, but a guide would be pretty useful to a guy who had never worked on anything but "Spam cans". If an IA doesn't WANT to use a guide, it isn't like it is a requirement.

Hank

Hi Hank,

Amen to that, I think that you are spot on about face to face versus written posts on a forum.

Dave

[3Dreaming]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

Hank, I think the point most of us IA's are trying to get across is a person can't simply look at all that is required to be looked at, and in the detail it should be looked at in the amount of time that you are allowing for the inspection. Especially if you are trying to do several airplanes in one day. If you are doing it in less time you likely are not covering all that legally needs to be covered.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: First Taylorcraft annual

I think that is my point too. I have a list of the things you HAVE TO look at, and it does NOT do the job. What I am trying to build is a list of anything anyone else has found wrong as a "cheat sheet" for additions to any individual IA's list of what they check. This would be ESPECIALLY valuable to an IA who was trying to do a Tube-n-Rag for the first time. We ARE running out of IA's who know our planes. No "list" will ever take the place of a good IA with a sharp eye, but it would be nice to know where the problem areas are and how others looked at them.
The whole discussion on how many planes in a day can wait. This time the inspection will only be my plane and it has already involved several trips while we worked out problems. IF we were doing multiple annuals it would be on planes the IA was familiar with already. Like I said, it isn't a race, it is more eyes on the problem. I have already had several Taylorcraft guys, half a dozen A&Ps and three IA's looking at mine (NOT as an annual, just as a check to see if they could catch me missing something. Lots of friends are interested in my plane and getting it back in the air).

Hank