Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

[topgun327]

I made an attempt to get my Tcraft (N95777) changed from a standard category aircraft to an ELSA. The paperwork was disallowed for technical reasons that I have yet to figure out. I recently had it in for parts changes, which caused unknown problems because I was unable to find standard parts, and my so called mechanic seemed unable to find them either. I had some parts made which were close to the original types, but the mechanic would not certify them, even though he installed them on the airplane. My Tcraft now sits in a hanger, at Chapman Field, Centerburg, Ohio, in pieces, waiting to be re-assembled, or parts'd out.

Has anyone ever been able to change their class from standard to ELSA? What is the necessary paperwork?



Helpless in Ohio

[barnstmr]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

Which are the parts in question?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

You DO NOT have to convert your plane from Standard/Normal to ELSA to use owner produced parts! In fact I don't think you even CAN any more. Add to that the fact that your mechanic does NOT certify your parts (he can't do that either, nor does he have to). It looks like you are stuck because some people you are working with do not understand how owner produced parts are supposed to be used.

Get with us with what parts your mechanic is questioning and some details on how you made them (or had them made) and we can walk you through the process. All is not lost. Not even close. The WORST you may face is making a part over again or buying one from someone who has a spare here. You will be back in the air again in no time.

Hank

[stearman3]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

Hank, we would all be ahead if you just forgot about 'owner produced parts', and just accomplished a 'repair' of the part under 43.

Those part 21 guys in the FAA really don't understand maintenance.

[stearman3]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

For that matter, neither do a lot of our current A/W Inspectors!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

You have to "educate" them, but you should also be educated yourself. As an example you are NOT supposed to just make all the parts for your plane. You are SUPPOSED to BUY them from authorized manufacturers when they are "available". If we were allowed to make anything we wanted I would have made my own wing struts for a LOT less than I paid for new sealed ones!

That said, the "factory" saying parts are available, but never actually having any in stock is a real problem. The FAA was taking their word for it for a VERY long time as I remember and they were not actually producing ANYTHING. When Harry Ingram owned the company, well, it was a bad time for Taylorcraft owners. The FAA was taking his word for things and wasn't listening to the owners who were trying to show them he was not on the Up-&-up.

If you read Wikipedia on Taylorcraft, take it with a grain of salt. Every time one of us corrects the BS in there it "mysteriously" changes back to "science fiction" (or maybe fantasy would be more accurate). Several people sent their planes to Texas to be worked on and parts from them seemed to be delivered to other customers. The "factory" was sold to a Mexican group and there have been many rumors since then, but nothing solid. When an "owner" tells the FAA they have parts for sale, but no one can contact them and actually BUY parts, it causes us a lot of problems. Lucky for us there are a lot of parts in Tribe members hangars and we can generally keep planes in the air, but sometimes you have to go to owner produced parts. Just make sure your mechanic will sign off when you use them. I have LOTS of owner produced parts on my plane and all were made in accordance with regulations. Most can't be told from originals, even by the guys here...and we are pretty good at spotting "home made" parts.

Hank

[stearman3]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

Getting back on track to change to Experimental LSA..

You just can't do that with an A/C that has been previously certificated Standard.

Our airplanes already meet the light sport operating requirements because of Gross wt.

To take a std airplane into experimental, it can't JUST be Experimental.

It has to be experimental for a specific purpose. IE, exhibition/air race/ amateur built/etc.

I don't think experimental operating light sport is an option for a previously std. certificated aircraft.

[stearman3]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

For the Parts issue....I don't 'make' parts.

I perform maintenance under part 43 as required by parts 91 and 21 to sustain the effectiveness of my A/W cert.

The only work that would really demand consideration of part 21 would be approval of data for the accomplishment of a MAJOR ALTERATION.

[3Dreaming]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

Here is the only aircraft that can get an experimental airworthiness certificate in the light sport category.

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that—

(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008;

(2) Has been assembled—

(i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the information required by §21.193(e); and

(ii) In accordance with manufacturer's assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard; or

(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190.

Since your airplane has had an airworthiness certificate issued before, and it was not issued under 21.191 you can't do it experimental light sport.

[M Towsley]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

This is interesting. This plane, which is Bruce Bixler's former T-Craft, is for sale on Barnstormers for $22,000. It is an interesting ad to read.

See ad here: http://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?ID=851801

I also noted from his pasts posts this gentleman asks questions but never responds back. I hope he does here because this is turning into a bit of a mystery for this airplane.

[topgun327]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

Which are the parts in question?

I had tried to 337 a Matco tail whell to no avail. I now have a rebuilt scott with all the correct parts. When the FAA came to inspect my airplane, they disallowed the scott because it did not have tail springs on it, which I had provided to my mechanic, and he refused them, even though they were scott springs from another scott tai wheel I bought on the internet. The scott will be certified soon, along with every other part in question. The cracked upper manifold will keep me from flying. I have located a used A65 at a friends airport north of 6CM.

I want to go into "Experimental research & Development" class with my Tcraft because I am fed up with the intractability of the FAA when it comes to retrofitting parts, which are becoming more difficult to find. I have tried to attach an image of some of the parts I found for my mechanic, just to show you what I have been through the last year. I own an airplane, which I bought in Sept 2011, that I have never flown because I can't find parts that are acceptable. I have had parts made that are good enoughto use on the Tcraft, but the mechanic is afraid to give airworthy status to them. The FAA is no help. I have quoted FAR 21.9, 43.3 paragraph (#^#&#^$&&&) until I am blue in the face. The FAA grounded me because they said I can't repair my airplane, because it does not have a "SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE" in the LSA category.

So this is what I have been through. A busted airplane, sitting in a hanger at Centerburg airport, $4300.00 dollars to the mechanic, another +500.00 in transport costs getting it out Delaware airport to Centerburg. I'm fed up with all of it. Any suggestions would be appreciated

[IMG]C:\Users\david\Documents\Flight\All the parts 1[/IMG]

[Bigdog]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

... I have tried to attach an image of some of the parts I found for my mechanic, just to show you what I have been through the last year....

[IMG]C:\Users\david\Documents\Flight\All the parts 1[/IMG]

We'd all like to see the list but that points to your hard drive which we can't get to. To attach the list you will need to use the "Go Advanced" reply button. In the Additional Options section under Attachments, click Manage Attachments. Click one of the Browse buttons in the dialog to find and select the file with your list. Be sure to click the Upload button then you can close the Manage Attachments dialog window.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

David,
Sounds to me like you have had WAY more than your share of the run-around. Who in the Tribe is in the Columbus area of Ohio? Sounds like what is needed is an infusion of some rational decisions from an AI who knows Taylorcrafts.
Wish you were in south east Virginia. The we have some mechanics here who actually THINK before they say no. My IA WILL say no, but it is because there is an actual problem, not because he "can".

We need someone close who can look at Davids plane, fix the problems, and get him in the air where he belongs! We can FIND the right parts here, we just need someone who knows the planes to get him safe and signed off.

Hank

[Pearson]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

David,

I understand your frustration. It sounds like there might possibly be several aspects to your situation. Without hearing his side of the situation, it sounds like you may have a mechanic more suited to working on later model airplanes. It takes a special type of mechanic to know the ins and outs of working on old antique airplanes. But it also takes a special kind of owner to deal with the unique challenges of owning one as well.

If you want to be able to just use whatever works for replacement parts, my suggestion would be to sell your Taylorcraft and find a non certified type flying machine. I have a friend who builds and flies these aircraft. He constantly amazes me with his repair techniques. There is no engineering to assure things are strong enough or durable enough for their intended use. He uses the “that looks about right” method of engineering. I don’t fly with him! Of course you can achieve a certain level of safety by building a kit using the instructions provided and consulting with an engineer on any modifications.

If you want to be assured of a higher level of safety and reliability, you should stick with a certified aircraft. But that also means complying with the regulations and specified maintenance practices. It sounds like you want to be safe by having your aircraft inspected annually. The whole purpose of this inspection is to find anything that isn’t safe. On a certified aircraft that also means anything that doesn’t comply with the type certificate. The type certificate spells out the specific models of tail wheels and other parts that have been reviewed and found to be safe to use on that aircraft. There is a method for using other parts by modifying the type certificate through the use of a Supplemental Type Certificate or STC. But to obtain an STC you need to provide engineering data to the FAA that basically proves your modification, or use of a different tail wheel, is structurally sound. You can obtain this engineering data through the talents of Designated Engineering Representatives (DER), such as Terry Bowden who has already replied to your original post. Obviously, he will need to be compensated, and there are often other costs such as machining, testing, and costs of parts and materials.

As Hank also mentioned, there is a vast treasure of knowledge and parts available through this forum. I am curious about your “upper manifold”. Can you describe that part a little more? Is it what the carburetor bolts onto? Any other parts you might need, please let us know. Anyone who has owned a Taylorcraft for very long probably has at least some sort of a stash of spare parts.

I would also be curious to hear about why your mechanic didn’t like the tail wheel springs you found. As you may know, the various models of Scott tailwheels do not all use the same springs. Also, you mentioned $4300 to your mechanic. Is that all labor costs for his time, or is some of that for parts also. Like Hank mentioned, a mechanic can’t certify a part. You may want to ask your mechanic how many annuals he has done on old tube and fabric aircraft. If all you see around his shop is a bunch of spam can type airplanes, maybe you should seek one who does more work on antique tube and fabric aircraft. With that said, put yourself in his place. When he signs off your airplane for an annual he is saying it is safe to fly. If the tail wheel fails on the next landing and you smash up your plane, he is liable. It is a huge responsibility. Did your plane go through a conformance inspection? Why was the FAA inspecting it?

If you go to http://vb.taylorcraft.org/showthread...t-photos/page2 there is a posting from me explaining the steps to attach a picture or other type of file. If that doesn’t help enough, email your pictures to me at [email protected] and I will post them for you. Let us all know what parts you need. Contact Terry Bowden. Use the vast experience here on this forum and we will help you solve these problems.

[Marv]

Re: Getting my T craft changed to Experimental LSA

I would have moved that airplane from that hanger $4000 ago. enough said.