FAA records don't match data plate

[Eddie C]

Hello,
I'm in the process of buying a 1940 BC12. It has been in a barn for 30 plus years and was given to an A&P who is restoring it. The aircraft logs are complete except for the first logbook. The data plate and all of the aircraft logs show it as a BC12 but at FAA. gov it is listed as a BF12. Is this a cause for concern or a minor paperwork issue. I have contacted the FAA but haven't received a response.
Any help/advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Eddie

[NC36061]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Eddie,

This may not be a big deal, almost all BF and BL models have had the original Franklin and Lycoming engines replaced with Continentals over the years. Changing the engine does not change the model designation as far as the FAA registration is concerned. When you say you "contacted" the FAA, did you order the airplane's records on CD from Oklahoma City? That will have everything the CAA/FAA ever had on record concerning 337's, STC's etc and may explain things. Does the serial number on the data plate match the FAA registration, and the airframe? That's probably the most important issue. Look for the airframe SN on top of the upper right-hand door hinge tab on the fuselage. Could be logs and data plate from a deregistered airplane applied to another airframe? I'd get the CD and compare it to what's in the logs and data plate before committing to it.

What is more curious is you say its a '40, but a BC12. The "12" was an increase in GW to 1200lbs, which first happened with the 1941 Deluxe. 1940 models were all 1150 lb GW and were designated BC/F/L-65. If your data plate says "1940 BC12" then that would be strange. Maybe a 1941 model built in late 1940??

Dave

[Howard Wilson]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Hi Eddie,

Welcome to the forum.

You might be able to check for the SN stamped on the plane against your data plate SN. Some planes have the SN stamped on the back of the metal plate where the throttle comes out of the panel. My '39 BL/C has SN's stamped inside the side window latches. There are quite a few threads here that talk about the SN mix ups. Try searching 'serial number location' in the white search box up in the right hand corner of this page for a start. Might want to order the aircraft record CD from the FAA. Could have something in there from the original log book... I'm thinking there was a typo at the FAA. I've seen other listings of theirs that have data mixed up. I think the technical section on this site has examples of the paper work required to change an engine from one type to another. IIRC It's just a 337..... If you ever go towards Frederick PM me, I've still got the '39 sitting in the barn.
I'm sure more people will chip in here soon.
h

[Bigdog]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Do you have the Airworthiness Certificate? When was it issued, is it permanent or have an expiration and what model does it show? You should order the CD from the registration office. It costs ~$10 and will take several weeks to get but it may answer some questions. It should have the original airworthiness documents and bill of sale.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

The short answer from all of the above is this is a common problem and is NOT a problem. Fuselage serial numbers are FUSELAGE serial numbers not aircraft serial numbers. The factory moved planes around all the time and they got jumbled so being off a few numbers is not a big deal. Now if you have a 46 SN fuselage ona pre war plane, that is still common, but there should be paperwork saying the fuselage was replaced as a part of a repair. There are LOTS of planes with later fuselages on earlier planes, as well as LOTS of pre-war planes with post war wings. It is "nice" when your numbers all match the paperwork, but is NOT a deal killer. Data plates were changed when they got beat up and replaced by people who thought ALL Taylorcrafts were BC-12s, which THEY ARE NOT. You can replace the data plate (with approvals to correct it) and it isn't all that big a deal.
Most IAs and FAA people don't have any idea what the differences are and if you buy her you can make the log entries to correct all of it to match the CD from the FAA. Just make sure it is a good plane and we can help you fix the paperwork.

Hank

Be sure you have a good, safe, solid airplane! The rest most FAA types will never notice anyway.

[Eddie C]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Eddie,

This may not be a big deal, almost all BF and BL models have had the original Franklin and Lycoming engines replaced with Continentals over the years. Changing the engine does not change the model designation as far as the FAA registration is concerned. When you say you "contacted" the FAA, did you order the airplane's records on CD from Oklahoma City? That will have everything the CAA/FAA ever had on record concerning 337's, STC's etc and may explain things. Does the serial number on the data plate match the FAA registration, and the airframe? That's probably the most important issue. Look for the airframe SN on top of the upper right-hand door hinge tab on the fuselage. Could be logs and data plate from a deregistered airplane applied to another airframe? I'd get the CD and compare it to what's in the logs and data plate before committing to it.

What is more curious is you say its a '40, but a BC12. The "12" was an increase in GW to 1200lbs, which first happened with the 1941 Deluxe. 1940 models were all 1150 lb GW and were designated BC/F/L-65. If your data plate says "1940 BC12" then that would be strange. Maybe a 1941 model built in late 1940??

Dave

Hi Dave,
i just received this from the FAA; problem solved.

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Request for Aircraft Records - Problem

Mr. Cammack,

A search of the aircraft record for N27584 does show the model to be a BC65 with a Continental engine. We will update the aircraft record to show the correct model and issue a revised certificate to the registered owner.

Once this is completed, you will be able to see the change on our www.faa.gov website the following day.

JW

You are correct, it is a BC65. My father had a 1940 T-craft that i soloed and flew several hundred hours in and he always called it a BC12 so i have always called that year a BC12 as well even though it's not. Dad sold it in 2006 (I was living in Europe with an unknown return date and even though i wanted to keep it I couldn't.) Now I have four children who want to learn to fly and I'm looking for a T-craft. I really like to older ones because that's what we had and want one as original as possible, no electric, basic engine instruments, etc. I have a farm strip in Southern Maryland and this one I'm looking at is in Texas. I'd really like to contact someone who knows T-crafts to look at this one for me. Do you know if any Taylorcraft.org members are down that way?
Thanks for the response.
Eddie

[Eddie C]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Thanks for the response. I posted a reply to Dave which you can see below; problem solved. Does anyone have any connections in Texas that could assist me with inspecting this T-craft. I'm new to posting so hope that i'm not overdoing it. All of the serial numbers match and i'd love to see your 39 in the barn. How do I PM you?
Thanks
Eddie

[Eddie C]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

This is what I've received from the seller; there is no serial number or other info, just the N number.
Thanks

[Pearson]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Eddie,

Prior to somewhere around 1956 aircraft got a new airworthiness certificate every year when they successfully completed an annual. Then, I believe the year was 1956, they decided to issue a permanent airworthiness certificate and make it amendable through a logbook entry of a successful airworthiness inspection. So, any airworthiness certificate issued prior to whatever year it was, 1956 plus or minus a year or two, is no longer valid. My plane had this same situation when I bought it. I had to go through a conformity inspection with a DAR to get a permanent airworthiness inspection. The conformity inspection is a really good way for you to get to know your plane. The DAR goes through the logbooks and the airplane to verify that the airplane conforms to the type certificate. Unfortunately, DARs don't work for free. So it will probably cost a few hundred dollars for him or her to inspect your airplane. You also have to have an I/A inspect it for an annual inspection. It is best to find an I/A very familiar with Taylorcraft who also has a good relationship with a DAR. That way they can work together to coordinate the inspections. A good I/A will be able to tell you what needs attention to comply with a conformance inspection. If you are looking at buying an airplane that needs this done, I would suggest an even more thorough prebuy inspection with an eye toward conformity. An example of where you could get into a problem would be if the type certificate listed approved tailwheels, props, or engines and your plane had something different WITHOUT proper documentation, such as an STC or field approval. That would make it unable to pass the conformance inspection.

[Howard Wilson]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Thanks for the response. I posted a reply to Dave which you can see below; problem solved. Does anyone have any connections in Texas that could assist me with inspecting this T-craft. I'm new to posting so hope that i'm not overdoing it. All of the serial numbers match and i'd love to see your 39 in the barn. How do I PM you?
Thanks
Eddie

Hi Eddie C,
Click on your private messages up on the left hand side of your screen. I sent you some contact info. h

[Joe cooper]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Eddie,

Prior to somewhere around 1956 aircraft got a new airworthiness certificate every year when they successfully completed an annual. Then, I believe the year was 1956, they decided to issue a permanent airworthiness certificate and make it amendable through a logbook entry of a successful airworthiness inspection. So, any airworthiness certificate issued prior to whatever year it was, 1956 plus or minus a year or two, is no longer valid. My plane had this same situation when I bought it. I had to go through a conformity inspection with a DAR to get a permanent airworthiness inspection. The conformity inspection is a really good way for you to get to know your plane. The DAR goes through the logbooks and the airplane to verify that the airplane conforms to the type certificate. Unfortunately, DARs don't work for free. So it will probably cost a few hundred dollars for him or her to inspect your airplane. You also have to have an I/A inspect it for an annual inspection. It is best to find an I/A very familiar with Taylorcraft who also has a good relationship with a DAR. That way they can work together to coordinate the inspections. A good I/A will be able to tell you what needs attention to comply with a conformance inspection. If you are looking at buying an airplane that needs this done, I would suggest an even more thorough prebuy inspection with an eye toward conformity. An example of where you could get into a problem would be if the type certificate listed approved tailwheels, props, or engines and your plane had something different WITHOUT proper documentation, such as an STC or field approval. That would make it unable to pass the conformance inspection.

The Cessna 195 I purchased in 1985, had the old certificate. The airline pilot I bought it from (, who turned out to be an alcoholic, )flew it this way. It caused me a lot of trouble and the fed inspector said he could demand it be taken back to, as he termed it, " factory standard" . He wound up passing it but it was a close thing. If he had not been buddy's with the AI who was also the FBO it could have been a financial nightmare. A very close call. The airplane was grounded for 8 months while all this crap went on. Caveat emptor for sure.

[NC36061]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

Eddie, I sent you a PM.

[Mark Julicher]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

There are plenty of members of the Taylorcraft Tribe in Texas. Where is the aircraft located? Houston to Dallas is like from Southern Maryland to Connecticut, (except you can't really find a good Philly Cheese Steak along the route) It would be helpful to find someone reasonably close to inspect the plane. If it is near San Antonio I can probably help.

[Marv]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

The Cessna 195 I purchased in 1985, had the old certificate. The airline pilot I bought it from (, who turned out to be an alcoholic, )flew it this way. It caused me a lot of trouble and the fed inspector said he could demand it be taken back to, as he termed it, " factory standard" . He wound up passing it but it was a close thing. If he had not been buddy's with the AI who was also the FBO it could have been a financial nightmare. A very close call. The airplane was grounded for 8 months while all this crap went on. Caveat emptor for sure.

If he was a "Alcoholic" and flew for an airlines and flew a Cessna 195 and was still alive, he must have been one hell of a pilot.

[Bigdog]

Re: FAA records don't match data plate

There are plenty of members of the Taylorcraft Tribe in Texas. Where is the aircraft located? Houston to Dallas is like from Southern Maryland to Connecticut, (except you can't really find a good Philly Cheese Steak along the route) It would be helpful to find someone reasonably close to inspect the plane. If it is near San Antonio I can probably help.

Who needs cheese steak when we've got BBQ, chicken fried steak and Tex-Mex? If it's around Houston, let me know.