Ares 1X

[Larry Lyons]

Hank, seeing as we hijacked the last thread I moved it to here. What is the status now? I get no audio from the streaming video. Larry

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Ares 1X

OK got it. Weather hold! LL

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Ares 1X

Well that was a pretty launch. Now I guess it is time for the data crunchers to go to work.

Nice condensation on the shock wave at Mach 1.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Ares 1X

The shock wave was kind of expected since the mold line for the second stage and Orion is the old shape not the new one. The REAL problem is the second stage was NOT supposed to turn 90 degrees on separation! It should have continued on a parabolic arc till the second stage engine "would have" started (there was no second stage engine on this test, but the second stage should NOT have turned!)
I can't wait to see what the G loads were in that staging event. If there had been a real second stage the tanks would have split open and range safety would have had to abort the mission.
They are showing different camera views now and most of them they are cutting off the film just as the tube breaks. Should be some interesting
"spin" on this one.
Hank

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Ares 1X

I saw that second stage turn and and thought OOPS too. Didn't realize that there would be a second stage ignition at that point but knew there would be damage at the separation point. Larry

PS: By the way thanks for the link, I was listening on Satellite radio, FOX news, no TV in the office. Larry

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Ares 1X

Hank,

I noticed the streaming cameras were shut off rather abruptly when the stage yawed out of control.

What was the stabilizing force on the second stage? Was it merely a CG well forward on the stage or was there something like a gyro actively stabilizing the tube?

Perhaps they can use the old engineering adage, "Flaw? It is NOT a flaw it is a special feature."

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Ares 1X

Normally you don't use active stabilizing for the second stage at SEP. There is (should be) positive static margin and pretty good natural inertial stability until the engine lights off, at which time the engine gimbals to keep the stage going straight. On one video source I counted 4 rotations of the second stage before they cut the feed.
Remember that for this test the second stage was a dummy with no engines or fuel, but it should have continued on a parabolic trajectory like a Lawn Dart into the Atlantic, not spin like a Chop Stick in a tornado.
The first stage has a couple of small rocket motors on the skirt at the bottom that fire to increase the angle of attack and drive the drag up to give them clearance and slow the first stage down for the recovery system. That seemed to be working.
I would bet my next paycheck that this will be billed as a complete success and you will rarely (or never) see the second stage spinning out of control again.
Hank

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Ares 1X

OK, So if the second stage is statically stable, it means a forward CG on the tube - CG at least 1.5 tube diameters ahead of the tube centroid. Perhaps some water ballast was left out of the prelaunch checklist, or maybe it leaked out? Or maybe I am all wrong about the ballast, but something has to put weight forward.

The yaw was rather violent so I would guess the SEP was not as clean as it should have been - maybe an explosive bolt failed?

And as you said, 100% success means the launch met all objectives. As long as second stage performance is not an objective -- no problem. More funding!!

[skip]

Re: Ares 1X - Tumble motors

NASA-TV is now giving the real story. None of that rumour mongering...

The second stage had - let's see - oh yeah - TUMBLE MOTORS so that the dummy second stage would spin and aerodynamic drag would slow it down properly for a drop in the ocean. It was all planned. complete success! Glad that we have the real true story now. tumble motors. Yup.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Ares 1X

OK, come on guys. It's not some grand conspiracy. We have seen the pictures but no one at NASA has had time to reduce any data. It tumbled or spun around the wrong axis. They will find out what happened but I really doubt any of us (even me) will ever see it. That doesn't make it a grand conspiracy (just a minor clean up of the mess). The Augustine Committee has pretty much already killed Ares. This was just the last nail in the coffin and disposal of the "evidence". Who would want to see that 300' vehicle in the rocket park at Kennedy like a giant middle finger reminding everyone of the whole mess. Better to just fire it into the Atlantic and move on to a realistic launch system (yes, there IS one out there and it COULD reduce or eliminate the access gap WITHOUT the $3b per year addition to the budget).
Like I said in the beginning, I worked Orion landing systems and I'm working the new space suit design, so I'm on the edge of the Ares program, but I never thought it would work for a LOT of reasons and I'm happy it is pretty much over. Let them claim victory and stop wasting money on a BAD architecture. There is a good one in the wings just waiting.

http://www.directlauncher.com/

Hank

I'm going to shut up now before I get myself fired.