Fierarm referesher course

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

In the law a weapon is defined as: "an instrument which by intention is designed to cause harm or death to man or beast." So hands/fists don't count, usually (see an exception below). Like all laws there are exceptions but the word "intention" is what makes base ball bats, a gold club, or a car (which we don't usually consider as such) a weapon. In our modern world, firearms carried or worn are most often considered weapons even if these carry no intention. Too bad, for my target guns have no such attached intention but my hunting shot guns, deer rifle, and home protection revolver do carry "intention". However, not while I'm transporting, storing, cleaning, or smithing them. A finger, poked solidly in the sturnum, by someone attempting to intimidate you, is battery and can be considered intimidation by weapon, in some states. I think in Colorado, police are allowed to file misdemeanor assault charges if you poke'em in the chest. Someone else must test this theory for me as I'm unwilling to find out. With regards; ED OBRIEN

[Len Petterson]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

What are they doing about gang violence in Florida and other places.
In Toronto and other places, they arrested 60 youth for gang related offences.
It is illigal to belong to a "gang" as it is considered a criminal organization.
30 lbs of cocaine, guns and amo and lots of money was seizest.
This gang was organized in a imigrant comunety and spred to many other cities as far as Vancover. Scare tactics keept them in bussinnes.
Our gun laws made it possible to get search warrants etc, to the best of my understanding. I do not own a gun nor will I the future, the layers will get me in the end. I belive the laywers have to much to say in gun control and aviation.
Common sence have gone by the ways side! You can always annalyse a situation untill you get it your way, never mind considering the knowledge at hand then the shots where fired.
I seen a Friend lose a 9 year old son to a neighburs loaded gun and the neigburs 11 year old kid taking it of the fireplace to play with it.
I would let layers have go at what gun owner.
Not the man what fires his gun becuase of persived threath. Toy guns what are so real looking what you can not tell the difference! We should go after the "toy" manefacturer and/or seller!
Not the police officer what hade it pointed at him and fired in selfdefence.
I would quit the force if it happend to me if I was an officer, but !!!!
I take my hat off for the man what put away his gun after the trafic accident, the potential for him getting very angry and fire his gun in anger, and/or others provocing a bad situation.
Would he do it today?Just look at all the road rage cases and drive by shootings!
Maybe if everybody caries a gun they would not happen? HMMMMMMM

Philocefer Lenny.

[flyguy]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

Just a couple of thoughts on revolvers/pistols as home protection. I personally have 45 and 22 autoloaders and a 357 revolver, but for home protection I keep a H.R. 12 gauge in the corner in the master bedroom.

As I always told the ladies who knew I was a target shooter and wanted get "a little pistol" for their homes; "You get a little pistol for your home and you may have to use it, but you point a 12 gauge at someone, and unless they are totally crazy, you probably won't have to shoot them."

You miss with a 357 or a 45 in the type of high density housing that most people live in today and you are just likely to kill your neighbor.

Example: my aunt had a round miss her by about a foot and go out the side wall after blowing her china cabinet to smitereens. Was a little altercation in the apartment next door.

Cop in the city here (SF) was drunk, shot at a yowling cat in the back yard, glanced off the fish pond and took out the lady's jaw who was sewing next door. (357 magnum)

Of course if you live out in the country you could probably use a 300 mag autoloader rifle with a 20 round magazine, if you wanted too. (yes, I know--just giving the most extreme example I can think of.)

PS: well, maybe not the MOST extreme. eg: elephant gun, ect, ect.

Darryl

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

Bedrooms of most homes make it a close quarters fight (12ft. to 12 inches). You can protect the muzzle and therefore wield a pistol better than a long gun in a tight confined space. Part of your gun hand maybe tied up jabbing, poking, and beating the intruder... or holding your family members out of the line of fire, so a double action revolver is my choice. Make mine a 45 revolver with at least a 4 inch barrel. Revolver because the gun stays in place a long time and the spring of an auto can go bad. Longer barreled revolver because most likely your fight will be at night. Anything shorter than a 3.5-4" barrel and you're blinded by muzzle flash from powder spray that's still igniting as the charge kicks the bullet out the muzzle. To each his/her own but look at what the SEALs, Delta Force and Rangers use: very short barreled M4s or their side arms when they come into a room combat stacked. I figure they've been in enough house by house, room by room fights to know what works best. By the way don't brandish the gun -- take it out only when you're ready to fire -- you ain't the police and giving a badguy information about how your armed is not a negotiating tactic it's dumb cowboy, dead cowboy in the first degree. Take a home defense course, stay in practice, clean it yearly, commit to the use of deadly force before you purchase the weapon... and hope nothing like this ever comes up.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

[flyguy]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

Well if I was in a combat situation going through a door and I didn't care if I killed the neighbors or not I would want a MAC-10 in one hand and a 357 revolver in the other. (firepower backed up by reliability)

At home I still prefer my minimum barrel, minimum length 12 gauge. I'm kinda fond of my neighbors (at least most of them).

In the end a guys gotta use what he's most comfortable with and the consequences, whatever they may be, will speak out when it's over.

Around here most people have a good enough life that they aren't going to risk throwing it away by breaking into a home, especially so when there is someone there.

I do remember one night having something fall over in the garage, making a loud clunk-bang, when all my weapons were at my brother's house. It does get you right in your gut being defenseless like that.
DC

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

Flyguy;
Regarding your analysis and shotgun decision making... as I said; "to each his own." May I offer an authoritative article on 12 ga. shotguns. I think you'll find shotguns have more penetration power to make it through walls than you think they do.
Click Here: http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm
Shotguns are good at incapacitation and wounding but not using the thought progression you've just listed.

In my case and since I have no one in the house but my dogs and wife... in other words, no children -- because they're grownups now -- my situation may be different from yours. I will defend only my bedroom
(provided the dogs and wife are in the bedroom too) The bad boys can take anything they like before the police arrive (I've got insurance)... but cross my bedroom threshold and the fight is on. If I don't recognize you outside the bedroom -- I'll hold fire and assess the situation -- if I don't recognize the person once someone is past the threshold -- Well, I hope it never comes to this, but the probability of a dynamic homeowner response goes way up.
Good luck and with regards; ED OBRIEN

[flyguy]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

Ed,
Thanks for the article on shotguns--pretty good reading. The close range penetration info was particularly interesting. Gives me an Idea of what shells to pick up at the gun shop next time I'm there to minimize sprinkling down the neighborhood if it ever comes to shooting in the house.
Figure even with the bird/target/rabbit stuff I have in the house now that most dudes would be discouraged if at 10 or 15 feet I blew off most of their head or the better part of what is located in their groin area.

Funny story (I think): Brother and I use to balance a walnut on top of an old light bulb and try to shoot it with a bb gun, from the hip, from about 20 feet away without breaking the light bulb. This was when we were about 10 or so years old. We both had bows and shot a lot in rural southern Illinois when we were kids. No fancy sights--offhand shooting.

Jump to about 8 years ago, out shooting clays with my dad using his 20 Remington. I said that it was getting boring and I was going to shoot one from the hip. He thoroughly castigated me for being a smart a** and then I busted the next two clays shooting from the hip with the 20 gauge. The look on his face was priceless. Needless to say I quit while I was ahead.

I believe I could pretty well amputate which ever part of an intruders body that I wanted to at 15 feet or so.

I don't understant the meaning of your sentence that I quote below:
"Shotguns are good at incapacitation and wounding but not using the thought progression you've just listed."
Interesting discussion--hope I'm not being boring.
Darryl

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

In response to:
I don't understant the meaning of your sentence that I quote below:
"Shotguns are good at incapacitation and wounding but not using the thought progression you've just listed."
Interesting discussion--hope I'm not being boring.
Darryl

Flyguy/Darryl;
Given that your information on penetration is likely flawed (see article I provided) and your only response to this safety concern is to go with smaller, lighter, and less lethal bird shot diameter -- you now have positioned yourself for wounding of you opponent and at best incapacitation
of your adversary. It will be shall we say, a Dick Cheney shooting. Yes I know Mr. Cheney was hunting a lighter gun (a 28 ga if I remember correctly) Your 12 ga is much more powerful. So light loads in a 12 will do what you need. Please remember the first rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun. On that subject, may I offer another authoritative and even-handed article on the subject:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/guns_home_defense.htm

I agree it's an interesting topic.Not so much about who is right... for there is up and down sides to each of our thinking
-- but can our imagination and intellect resolve what ultimately less a "think thing" and more a "do thing." In other words... how we perform in this event makes a great deal of difference. Perhaps more difference than what gun we bring.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

[flyguy]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

What was the line by Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." LOL

1. I didn't say that I had made a decision to use birdshot after reading the article. What I said was that ALL I had in the house NOW was was some smaller type shot.

2.I plainly stated that I was going to buy more shells at the gun shop.
"Gives me an Idea of what shells to pick up at the gun shop..."

I was at the shop today, and picked up a box of Federal 3 inch High Velocity, Ultra Shock magnums with #4 steel shot. That choice was from considering 1. Your link article 2. Shooting from zero to 15 feet.

I'm going to go out the first chance I get and check out the magnums by blowing holes in a few things. I'm trying not to think about how hard that light gun is going to kick.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, When I showed your shell test article to the saleslady at the gun shop, she commented that in her book 9 inches of penetration was probably adequate.

DC

[VictorBravo]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

she commented that in her book 9 inches of penetration was probably adequate.

DC

MMM Arghh NO! (!*$ NNffftt ! !(#$*% BUT //74qa09fdh... Aarrggghhhh!

(sound of my wife applying duct tape over my mouth and hands to prevent me from replying to this post)

[flyguy]

Re: Fierarm referesher course

Bill,
That isn't fair, quoting it out of context.
Darryl