Commercial flight adventure

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Dude, you have flown in much crazier stuff than I!!! I have done a couple of stupid things that have allowed me to say I now have "experience", but it could have turned out differently and I don't think the type of plane would have mattered unless I was flying a 757. At least one of them scared me into at some point getting my Instrument. I just wish I could afford it!

I like the performance because I can get out of shorter fields with more weight than most plane or use less runway than most (I view this as a safety thing). As a rule I avoid concrete runways and Control Towers......but at the same time, I try to avoid adverse weather stuff. Just because I can fly close to the envelope of my plane, doesn't mean I should (and I do it less and less now that I'm getting really old [38] LOL!!!!!

I will tell you what makes flying my T a joy.

1. I don't do it for a living.
2. I pick when I fly (NICE WEATHER)
3. It is mostly local
4. I can get it into a smaller area in an emergency that most
5. It doesn't use much fuel
6. Low operating cost
7. Flying my daughter around the pattern! She LOVES it.
8. It doesn't hurt that my hangar is in my back yard.

It has it's negatives too, but I have a lot say in wether I use them. There isn't a plane out there that I have flown that doesn't have it's negatives and I also don't see a C150 as a modern plane. Unfortunately, I don't see 500K planes coming off the assembly line today as "modern". Almost all of them are still flying with "Tractor Technology" from the 40's just in a prettier package.

But really the bottom line is your gut. An old pastor of mine once said, "If you can talk someone into something, someone else can talk them out of it". It all comes down to your gut feeling. You do what you think is best for you and your family. Having been to the edge (and maybe a little over it once) I have made a conscious decision to enjoy myself and keep a little distance from it. We hate to see you go, but if your mind is made up, make the jump and I really hope to meet you one day at a fly in!

Thanks Richard !! You guys are not rid of me yet. Summer is coming to a close and I have wasted months on many tire kickers. I think it is about time to pull it off the market till next spring.

SKyHigh

[N96337]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

[QUOTE=SkyHigh]

The only flying that I have done in Texas was in the 757. I remember it being hot but flat and of low elevation. Where I live it is hot and mountainous, so I guess I still don't understand why more performance is needed.

My biggest concern about safety is that the wing is of a uniform shape and offers little stall warning. By nature a Taylorcraft is considered to be a STOL airplane, not only are those activities inherently dangerous however if you are going to get that kind of performance on landing you need to be dead slow on short final to avoid floating. Modern planes have some sort of wing twist and as airspeed decays the pilot has several clues alerting him to an impending stall. A Cessna has fairly good aileron control all they way down to near stall when a loss of performance is detected. A gentile buffet begins when you are down to the last knot or two and when a Cessna does finally stall only the root is stalled fully while ailerons and much of the wing are still flying offering some control and importantly some lift. Of course you also have the stall horn blasting in your ear.

By comparison when a Taylorcraft is slowing you loose aileron control early on and are mostly using rudder for control. There are no warnings of control force changes, horn or buffet. The stall comes suddenly and without warning. One knot too slow and it is as if the wings were sawed off. Unexpectedly and without control the plane noses over to a steep downwards angle and it takes 50' or so of altitude loss to recover. The results are a plane stuffed into the ground like a lawn dart crushed up to the leading edges of the wing. In a Cessna if that were to happen you could still keep the nose up and suffer a hard landing. A quick application of power would smooth out impact significantly since your nose is pointed skywards. The danger zone in a Taylorcraft in my opinion is between 7 and 20 feet above the ground on short final.

If you don't believe me then take your plane up to altitude (1500' AGL at least) and practice a landing scenario using a hard altitude as the ground. Slow to near stall and at 20 feet or so above your target altitude stall and see what happens. Your plane will pass through the target at about a 45 degree nose down angle. Do the same in a Cessna and you will gently pass through in a nose high buffet.

I came to these conclusions by wondering why several Taylorcraft accidents in Alaska resulted in a classic lawn dart on short final. Other issues to safety are the lack of good brakes and crash cage design. Most modern planes have some consideration into crash technology. Older Taylorcrafts don't even have a proper shoulder harness. Even a small boo boo can lead to a fatality in a Taylorcraft. Perhaps in the interest of the members you guys should investigate one Taylorcraft accident every other month to study some of the common pitfalls of the plane?

SKyHigh

After reading the last few posts you've made, I'm personally GLAD you're not flying!! If you can't feel the airplane enough to feel it beginning to stall, and have these misconceptions about the design of the aircraft, you need to learn more before going back up in the air! The Taylorcraft does indeed have "twist" as you call it in the wing... and it does give off a warning, and different control feelings before stalling if it's even close to being rigged right. Yep, it'll float a bit if you come in too fast...so manage your speed..stay ahead of and know the airplane. The "crash cage" that you talk about is very well designed in the tube structure... I've also seen a few that have been wrecked, as well as a bunch of Cessna's... "when a Taylorcraft is slowing you loose aileron control early on and are mostly using rudder for control. There are no warnings of control force changes, horn or buffet. The stall comes suddenly and without warning. One knot too slow and it is as if the wings were sawed off. Unexpectedly and without control the plane noses over to a steep downwards angle and it takes 50' or so of altitude loss to recover. The results are a plane stuffed into the ground like a lawn dart crushed up to the leading edges of the wing." Where the hell did you come up with this one?????? I think you need to start over, personally. You're way out of your tree with these comments. By the way, if I ignored the area and weather I'd just flown over, and was relying on a radio to tell me what the weather was, then orbited over a fogged in valley and waited for my fuel to dwindle down to 10 minutes remaining, my old instructor would kick me so hard I'd never walk straight again...
I'm not impressed to say the least... the more I read of your BS, the less impressed I am...
JH

[robbie]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

I hope skyhigh gets off of the forum and get on a forum with a plane he likes.
He isn't doing any good here.
Lets get back to the subject we love. Taylorcraft's
By the way last saturday my budding took his 150 and I took the t-craft about 50 miles east of here for breakfast.
As that fast 150 was turning off the active runway I was turning final.
Yep it's a great plane.

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

[QUOTE=N96337]

After reading the last few posts you've made, I'm personally GLAD you're not flying!! If you can't feel the airplane enough to feel it beginning to stall, and have these misconceptions about the design of the aircraft, you need to learn more before going back up in the air! The Taylorcraft does indeed have "twist" as you call it in the wing... and it does give off a warning, and different control feelings before stalling if it's even close to being rigged right. Yep, it'll float a bit if you come in too fast...so manage your speed..stay ahead of and know the airplane. The "crash cage" that you talk about is very well designed in the tube structure... I've also seen a few that have been wrecked, as well as a bunch of Cessna's... "when a Taylorcraft is slowing you loose aileron control early on and are mostly using rudder for control. There are no warnings of control force changes, horn or buffet. The stall comes suddenly and without warning. One knot too slow and it is as if the wings were sawed off. Unexpectedly and without control the plane noses over to a steep downwards angle and it takes 50' or so of altitude loss to recover. The results are a plane stuffed into the ground like a lawn dart crushed up to the leading edges of the wing." Where the hell did you come up with this one?????? I think you need to start over, personally. You're way out of your tree with these comments. By the way, if I ignored the area and weather I'd just flown over, and was relying on a radio to tell me what the weather was, then orbited over a fogged in valley and waited for my fuel to dwindle down to 10 minutes remaining, my old instructor would kick me so hard I'd never walk straight again...
I'm not impressed to say the least... the more I read of your BS, the less impressed I am...
JH

Attack my ideas if you don't like them not me. I have collected these observations from owning a Taylorcraft for over twelve years. The trailing edge might have some twist in it but it would take some scientific instruments to detect it. Cessna has a clear twist and is much more controllable in a stall. The onset of the stall is subtle. I am sure that a new pilot who was trained in a Cessna or modern piper would easily miss it compared to the more obvious signs given off by other modern planes. In addition it is common to be out of radio contact in the north. There are even several IFR routes that are out of contact for as much as 20 minutes.

Don't get me wrong. All I am saying is that the plane isn't for beginners, doesn't have much utility and isn't a daily driver. It is no different from other planes in its class like the champ and cub. They are neat novelty planes that are dragged out of the hangar once in a while on sunny calm days. I don't think that most would argue this point. I live in a very windy area that isn't conducive to the light little Taylorcraft.

The diffrence between me and you is that after defending my little plane for so many years I don't feel the need to do it anymore. It isn't perfect. And as an 17 year CFI I think some of the safety issues should be talked about.

It isn't blaspheme just an opinion.

SkyHigh

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

I hope skyhigh gets off of the forum and get on a forum with a plane he likes.
He isn't doing any good here.
Lets get back to the subject we love. Taylorcraft's
By the way last saturday my budding took his 150 and I took the t-craft about 50 miles east of here for breakfast.
As that fast 150 was turning off the active runway I was turning final.
Yep it's a great plane.

If he was in a 152 I bet he would have been asking for more pan cakes before you were in the chalks.

SkyHigh

[Dick Smith]

Re: Commercial flight adventure



Alaskans are such a mess...take their Taylorcraft away and give them a C-150 or 152 and within an hour they will be ripping the nose gear off, stuffing a bigger engine in it and bolting on some big ol' tires...where will it end?

IMG]http://static.flickr.com/75/217806287_049d23a475.jpg[/IMG]

[Dick Smith]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

The Alaska Magnum...nice, but I guess I'll just stick with my humble ol' Tcraft!

[crispy critter]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

[QUOTE=SkyHigh]

Attack my ideas if you don't like them not me. I have collected these observations from owning a Taylorcraft for over twelve years. The trailing edge might have some twist in it but it would take some scientific instruments to detect it. Cessna has a clear twist and is much more controllable in a stall. The onset of the stall is subtle. I am sure that a new pilot who was trained in a Cessna or modern piper would easily miss it compared to the more obvious signs given off by other modern planes. In addition it is common to be out of radio contact in the north. There are even several IFR routes that are out of contact for as much as 20 minutes.

Don't get me wrong. All I am saying is that the plane isn't for beginners, doesn't have much utility and isn't a daily driver. It is no different from other planes in its class like the champ and cub. They are neat novelty planes that are dragged out of the hangar once in a while on sunny calm days. I don't think that most would argue this point. I live in a very windy area that isn't conducive to the light little Taylorcraft.

The diffrence between me and you is that after defending my little plane for so many years I don't feel the need to do it anymore. It isn't perfect. And as an 17 year CFI I think some of the safety issues should be talked about.

It isn't blaspheme just an opinion.

SkyHigh

Skyhigh,I agree with John. I have owned several t-crafts and I have a bc12d converted to model 19 now and what you are saying about the stall is wrong if you fly the airplane! I though maybe with an electrical system it may be harder to recover from a full stall but not so! I tried it yesterday and with a full break(power on and power off) I could catch it with NO noticable altitude loss. I must also add that if you can't tell when and airplane is about to stall weather it be a t-craft or an elephant with wings,then you got no buisness in an airplane at all !!!
Also,the story about the wings not having any twist,read your service book,it's in there.
As for speed,out of 6 flying t-crafts that I have owned,only one might have been about to be out run by a 150 or 152 and it is the one I have now,it cruises about 105mph or 90-95knots true ground speed. Most of the rest has 65's or 85's with no electrics and were faster then that.

Skyhigh,please do us all a favor and drop this entire subject.You are bashing one of our most loved airplanes into the ground time and time again and I for one am getting tired of hearing! You've been a strong supporter for a long time and for that you do deserve some respect but something has apperantly happened to scare you pretty damn bad and for that I'm sorry for you but I think you'll find that any other type of airplane is going to make you feel better about it! In my book you are welcome here anytime but I must say my patiants are wearing very thin on this subject and I wish you would just talk about something else or just not talk at all. If you are having problems(emotional or mechanical) we as a group will do our best to help you sort them out and get through it but we can't set around and let you rip apart our most favorite airplane in the world for absolutly no apperante reason.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

I think we'll bring this enlightning discussion to a conclusion. I think all interested parties have expressed their views admirably, but there appears to be little else to add.