painting the wings, UV, etc.

[jim cooper]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

Can't understand why MY wings are not all shriveled up and so forth. HOWEVER I have dropped the outside loop and snap roll, 9 g's, etc. from my daily routine. JC

[lawheelock]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

I don't remember how long the postal "Service has had zip codes but I think it has been more than 35-45 years since an address such as Chicago 29, Illinois would have been in an advertisement. Let see, aviation gas was around 38 cents per gallon or less in the early 60s and is now more than 10 times that so that $32 then would be at least $320 now days. I also remember when I could have bought a Maule fabric tester for $79 and when I finally did, some 15-20 years ago it was $275 or more.
Times have changed.
Larry Wheelock, N96179

[Mark Julicher]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

The punch test is not the definitive test of fabric strength. A pull test on a strip of cloth is correct.

However,

A punch test gives a good indication of the condition of the fabric and allows the IA to make a judgement call.

Yes, Ceconite loses 70% of its strength if it remains in direct sunlight for a year. But consider this - Ultralights have zero UV protection on their dacron and they are not falling out of the sky because they don't get parked outdoors for long periods.

JC I think you will be perfectly safe, but if I were going to buy your plane I would not pay top dollar either.

[Ray36048]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

Watch this......

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=666091412001

[jim cooper]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

dacron sailcloth? Obviously this aircraft was outside a LONG time! No comparison. Mine is not faded in any way. As brite as when painted. I'm flying tomorrow. JC

[FAT KID]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

I’m a little confused as to why you think you don’t have a sliver layer of dope on your wings. If the colored dope was applied correctly you would never see the sliver layers after the wings where done.

Are you seeing sun light coming through the fabric to the inside of your wings when you pull an inspection panel outside?

If you are truly missing the sliver layer of dope on your wings then I’m sorry but your aircraft is unairworthy. It really does matter how the fabric punch test or pull test or how good it looks and if it’s stored in a hangar or not.

What it boils down to is the process that was used is not in compliance with the STC for a Ceconite covered aircraft.

Get yourself a copy of the Ceconite 101 STC manual. That STC manual is the instructions for continued airworthiness and has all the info you need to repair your wings to an airworthy condition.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

The pull tester here and still here at the shop was made by my Dad ( an original DAMI) , It is two clamps and we used to pull with a spring scale of 100 lbs.
The UV protection we always used on Dacron or any cloth in the beginning was AP 303. see

http://www.ultralightnews.com/aircrafttroubleshooting/uv.html

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

Jim,
What Bill (FATKID) said is completely true, from the legal side. I always put SAFETY first and legal second. If the fabric pulls to 46# the fabric is safe. If the cover job has been signed off, it is legal. If the cover job was done WRONG it could be legal, but unsafe. Confusing? I think so.
Pull test a piece of fabric, if it passes, you are safe. Check the logs for a sign off of the cover job. If it is done properly, you are legal.
Now for the RIGHT thing to do after that. If you think there isn't enough UV protection you can either add protection to what is there or test the outer layer of fabric with a UV tester to SEE if it has enough. Either way if it was mine I would keep her out of the sun till I knew. If she needs more silver, "I WOULD DO IT". That's just me. As pretty as your plane is, if it needed more UV protection I would probably shoot more silver on all the top surfaces then re-top coat with color. It shouldn't add THAT much weight, and you already have a GREAT base for paint. Of course I would get a UV tester and find out for sure. That is the cheapest first step.
If you are legal in the log book and safe from the test (paint added or not) you are golden.
Hank

Heck, I thought you were making a mistake putting her up for sale anyway. If you left, who would I argue with that could actually back up their positions?

[jim cooper]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

log book and 337 states four coats of silver pigment dope, sanded between each coat, then color applied. Can you see color when looking thru inspection holes? yes. Was airplane legally inspected and approved for flight since 1996 rebuild by a certified A-I? yes. Is fabric very taut and tight and looking good? Yes. Has aircraft been in a hangar since 1996, YES! Unless being flown. Will I be flying the airplane until annual in April? Yes! Then we shall see. With the workmanship in the airplane, (perfect) its very difficult to see how he missed this. Has it been in a hangar since I bought it? Yes! unless being flown. Hank, you outa come up and fly this airplane! It is a GEM! I'd like your opinion on its overall workmanship! JC P.S. It has very extensive logs by the builder, every little thing he did is entered. A-I's name and address, perfectly clear, (unusual) and I have spoken with him. Very familiar with the airplane and says its perfectly safe.( Probably much safer than I am due to senility and old age.) Forest....read article on ultra lights...VERY interesting! Thanks!

[FAT KID]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

How does seeing color in an inspection hole lead you to believe you have no silver coats? As state earlier if the ceconite fabric process is done right you will never see the silver coats when the top coats have been applied. You should not be able see silver anywhere.

[Ray36048]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

question to all paint gurus: When the fellow painted the wings on my airplane, he used very little silver block. So.....when you take off an inspection cover and peer in, you can see lots of creme colored paint! I discussed this with the builder....he said quote", I put silver on but sanded it quite a bit. Its ceconite and dope with lots of dope (creme color) so Its fine. Remember that it was ALWAYS in the hanger! (unquote.) So... you opinions please. (I keep it in the hangar always but it may sit out during a day if I'm flying alot.) I think possibly that he forgot to put silver on at all, or to save money and WEIGHT decided to put extra creme color on instead. The paint job is superb. JC

This is how Jim started this tread. He can see cream from the inside of the wing, not silver.

[FAT KID]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

His inspection rings where probably cut out prior to top coating and he is seeing over spray inside the wings. If he is seeing the colored dope bleeding through the fabric to the inside then something is defiantly not right with that fabric job. He should be seeing a A RandO proofer or Dac proofer color or some kind of Nitrate coating showing through to the inside of the wing.

[Pearson]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

quote", I put silver on but sanded it quite a bit.

If there were originally several coats of silver, and they were sanded down to the point where the topcoat can be seen from the back side, I would suspect that the builder may have sanded into the fabric. To me, that would mean the fabric needs replacing. I pray that this is only overspray as mentioned by "FATKID".

Personally if it were mine, I would pick a spot and start watersanding with some fine grit sandpaper until I was convinced there was enough silver. If you end up sanding into the fabric, put a dollar patch on it and repair. At least you would know what you had. As FATKID mentioned, if the required amount of silver is not on there, the recover job does not comply with the STC and is illegal. Even if it passes a punch or pull test today does not mean it will pass in several years.

[flyguy]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

My only experience with "dope" was from working on a Staggerwing when I was about 14. The bottom coat is filler and clear, right? Lord knows I slopped on enough of that.

If there is ANY silver on it, even if sanded too much, you should at least see patches of dark when inspected in sunlight.

Cannot imagine how you would see the color coat that goes on TOP of everything unless it was sprayed through the inspection holes accidentally as mentioned above. None of this make much sense.
Darryl

[NY86]

Re: painting the wings, UV, etc.

Has the question of whether or not you can see sunlight inside the wing been answered? If you cannot, I'd say the whole discussion is moot. (Interesting, but moot).