Flaps?

[Nefj40]

Re: Flaps?

I just installed VGs on my Tcraft today, it sure did change the stall. The air is rougher than heck so I didn't want to play around too much, but so far I'm impressed. The break seems softer? and it's somewhere down below 40 now. It's definitely going to chop some distance off the ground roll.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Flaps?

The Austers did well (I assume) with an external trailing edge flap and that might be another proven option

Gary

You assume incorrectly, Gary, so go home and wash your mouth with soap, young man! Austers did well with nothing, apart from taking a good design and persuading the idiot British authorities to turn it into a military machine. For some reason that I cannot appreciate, there are some here in the UK loving of Austers. All the owners of them that I have met are all barking mad, so perhaps that's the attraction.

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

Hi Lyle. How did taylorcraft support the flap's loads forward into the wing structure? Did they use compression bracing between the spars or any visible structural improvements? There is an experimental retro-fit here (Greg Clayton the skylight STC owner) but externally it looks similar to the aileron installation...internally ??? I've not asked him. It would take a major wing and airframe change to install but might be a fun project nonetheless.

I installed flaps on my C-90 PA-11 after flying it for a few without. Cost was $5000+ and the benefit on takeoff questionable. Unless deployed no more than 12* the additional drag hindered takeoff (there were three notches at 12/25/50*). I could land on a $0.10 but not takeoff in the same distance...unbalanced performance. They were nice for slow flight and on floats or in deep snow at times.

It's interesting to discuss flaps with Supercub owners. When asked if they ever leave them up for takeoff or landing I've been met with a deer-in-the headlights stare. I owned two PA-18's and rarely deployed them for takeoff unless the conditions required...maybe 4 mph difference in performance which is blown through with their power very quickly. They can increase rate of descent through increased drag nicely over obstacles or minimize ground roll on rough terrain.

Gary

[AeroCapture]

Re: Flaps?

If anyone is interested here, I have a set of F-22 flaps with most of the needed hardware to retro fit onto an earlier model.

- Lyle

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

Naca did testing on the 23012 airfoil in the 1930's, the best flap is a 12% chord USA35b flap to limit pitching moment. I used to have all of the reports but not anymore. Flaps if not done right cause the airplane to nose over excessively.

Helio Courier did it right with their slotted flap on the same airfoil. Same for Bill Diehl's Arctic Tern (now: http://www.interstateaircraft.com). Would it be worth adding Arctic Tern flaps to a Taylorcraft? Not without structural analysis and operational considerations with a smaller engine.

Removable Gurney flaps might be the simplest solution for additional lift in certain conditions. Edit for Gurney Flaps: http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Ma...A2007-4175.pdf There's more than a few aircraft with them installed "experimentally". Slower stall, more drag, less cruise speed. Might be ok if they were quickly removable via nut plates.

The Austers did well (I assume) with an external trailing edge flap and that might be another proven option.

Gary

[astjp2]

Re: Flaps?

Naca did testing on the 23012 airfoil in the 1930's, the best flap is a 12% chord USA35b flap to limit pitching moment. I used to have all of the reports but not anymore. Flaps if not done right cause the airplane to nose over excessively.

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

I've owned and flow both un-flapped and flapped versions of the same basic aircraft (Citabrias and Pipers). And have even survived un-flapped takeoffs and landings in others. They are not required for safe flight in aircraft with a low wing loading, and in fact can hinder takeoff performance in low powered aircraft if deployed too early and too much. The benefit of additional drag and lower deck angle can at times be helpful when landing in restricted areas while maintaining an adequate margin above the stall.

But there are times they can help with additional lift whenever their L/D is favorable to the former. Minimally deployed on floats or skis they can get the plane unstuck from glassy water or out of deep snow into ground effect. When slow flying and forward visibility is a concern they can offer a lower nose angle at the same lift.

I've yet to see a wind tunnel plot for an airfoil with and without flaps that didn't show some increase in both lift and drag...how and when they're used is up to the pilot.

Would I have flaps on my Taylorcraft? Yes if they were designed properly and didn't affect the airframe adversely. As mentioned by another earlier, I'd not give up my VG's as they do help de-tune the airfoil's stall behavior.

Gary

[cubby]

Re: Flaps?

Anyone have experience using a Taylorcraft with flaps for backcountry or off airport flying?

Were the flaps a worthwhile improvement in performance, or landing target consistency?

I have Flaps on my second Taylorcraft, my Model 19, didn,t have them, but my F22A ,does, there a deterent to floating, and thats about it ,the owners Manual says no flaps, for take off, in Emergency only ,which makes me think its possible the wing could be over stressed, with the 118 hp Lycoming,but i wouldn,t recomend them, with the out lay of time, and money, you,d have to pay,but to each his own ,i wish i had waited ,and bought another Model 19,i have a lot of money tied up in a nose wheel Taylorcraft,when i should have bought another tail wheel ,with out flaps ,i had 800 hours in my Model 19 ,the only thing you need to know ,make a slower approach ,with in saftey limits ,and it wont float ,Paul. ( cubby )

[cubby]

Re: Flaps?

Anyone have experience using a Taylorcraft with flaps for backcountry or off airport flying?

Were the flaps a worthwhile improvement in performance, or landing target consistency?

I have Flaps on my second Taylorcraft, my Model 19, didn,t have them, but my F22A ,does, there a deterent to floating, and thats about it ,the owners Manual says no flaps, for take off, in Emergency only ,which makes me think its possible the wing could be over stressed, with the 118 hp Lycoming,but i wouldn,t recomend them, with the out lay of time, and money, you,d have to pay,but to each his own ,i wish i had waited ,and bought another Model 19,i have a lot of money tied up in a nose wheel Taylorcraft,when i should have bought another tail wheel ,with out flaps ,i had 800 hours in my Model 19 ,the only thing you need to know ,make a slower approach ,with in saftey limits ,and it wont float ,Paul. ( cubby )

[flyguy]

Re: Flaps?

I'll agree on that. I just got to fly 5 days in a row last week and about the forth day I landed in a 12 kt crosswind. I thought, "well that wasn't so bad." I don't think I have ever flown 5 days in a row before.

Sure didn't have to work so hard to get it slowed down and plopped on the end of the runway. That was just one landing per day. Lot more comfortable, not such a busy feeling.
DC

[T-Rex]

Re: Flaps?

A little off topic but it always shocks me when a guy who flies 20-30 hrs. per year comes in to the shop and wants to do everything he can to loose weight on the airplane witch usually means a $800.00 starter a $600.00 alternator and then maybe through in a $1200.00 VG kit oh yeah and don't forget about install labor. All of this to lose about 10 to 15lbs of weight. And don't forget most of them are about 30lbs overweight. More time in the seat is all they need, that is the most important thing you can do to improve performance.

Re: Flaps?

When doing the short 300' landings how high is the obstacle at the approach end of the runway?

Dave

[Pearson]

Re: Flaps?

I am a little curious about your definition of landing in a short distance or ultra tight landings. A Taylorcraft flown properly lands short by it's very nature. If you are landing with the "nose high just above stall speed" and it isn't a short enough landing, you have the wrong airplane. A sloppy pilot using poor technique can land a Taylorcraft in 300 ft or less at sea level. With practice that can easily be reduced to a couple hundred feet. Add 31" Airstreaks and you can plop it down in 150 feet or less. Obviously if you are going into high mountain strips these distances will be greater. If you are trying to emulate the guys in Alaska that compete in the landing contests, I suggest you get a Cub. They have a different airfoil. You mentioned that you might just need more time in the Taylorcraft. It does take practice to consistently get the best performance out the Taylorcraft. Maybe you are right. Try spending more time in it and see if you are better able to get consistent results. I personally feel that flaps won't do anything for you that a good sideslip can't do. Keep in mind that the guys you see in the STOL competition do that for a living. They have thousands of hours of doing exactly that type of flying every day. If you want to perform like that, it takes more than just the right airplane.

[blue_ridge]

Re: Flaps?

Thanks guys for replying about your experiences.

Shawn and RobertP, thanks for the F-22 insights.

[RobertP]

Re: Flaps?

I have a F22A which has flaps and I agree with what Shawn says.

In addition they can cause a good deal of vibration in the wing area in certain circumstances which can be a bit worrying especially set at 30 degrees on finals!

When I had to have the wing taken off to repair the fuel tank leak! ( Don't even ask! ) They found a substantial crack in the Aluminium strip on the leading edge area where the wooden spars go (sorry about the lack of technical description ) They had to make an insert into the damaged area and it was felt that this damage was caused by vibration from the flaps! my mechanic advised against using them in future!

Having said that I still use them on occasions but very carefully. They are useful set at 10 degrees for short take off's.