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**Guest** · 12-31-2009, 09:03

Re: New airplane?!

Originally posted by freightpilot27 View Post

With all due respect, I think the LAST thing the new company should do is build another airplane. There is no money in new general aviation airplanes anymore. period.

Parts is where the money is. And we all need parts to keep these airplanes going. I know I do.

I would loose a lot of faith in these new investors if they start building the F19 again. Especially if they put the effort into it before they get the parts inventory up and available. I'm tired of spending hours, days and weeks building dies and jigs to make a small part that should be available for a few dollars from the factory.

Talorcraft- What parts do we need? Take a look at the Univair and Wag Aero catalogs. Then make everything else. Stupid simple.

Ranting over.........
Sorry.

I need a Tylenol......

I pretty much agree with you.

Additionally consider this; more places making parts (Univair, Wag-Aero, Taylorcaft) just dimishes the profit and/or volume so it is more likely that all of them stop doing that business. The demand is not large.

If perhaps there is large demand for a part then one of the two existing suppliers are best suited to measure the demand and produce that part.

Another reality is that tailwheel airplane owners are cheap and often prefer to buy or make rather than support these companies that are making parts. Airplane parts are expensive.

If the foundation provided drawings that would help for make your own and PMA efforts too.

That's what I think.

Dave

**mohawktipi** · 12-31-2009, 09:19

Re: Whispers of the North

Can't say that I disagree with what has been said so far but consider this. There are two paths to keeping Tcraft in the air, restoration and maintenance/upgrade.

Those wanting to do restorations, and keep as close as possible to the original, need a source for replacement parts. This niche may or may not be small. But the supply of existing or NOS stock is going down quickly and perhaps the factory could fill the void.

The second group of Tcraft owners (like me) are trying to "look" stock but upgrade to more modern equipment. Perhaps the factory could work on or consolidate STCs for the various models. This woukd allow for quick repairs or upgrades to keep us flying. Just my thoughts

**Hank Jarrett** · 12-31-2009, 09:53

Re: Whispers of the North

With the right business plan the factory CAN build new planes BUT if they do it wrong they will never survive. The key is to start by building the best profit PARTS first and using the existing infrastructure in the current suppliers pool to sub for what is already on the market. As subcontractors, the Wag Aeros, Univairs.....can preserve their piece of the market while cutting cost for manufacture of a complete plane. The WORST thing the factory could do is go into competition with companies that are not making enough profit to spit at already on Taylorcraft parts. All the subs will do is stop making the parts and sell their existing stock at a price just below the factory. Production then stops at the secondary manufacturers and the factory starves with ridiculous overhead and no parts sales. After the factory is dead we have to fight for years to show there is a market for the subs to start production again while we cannibalize planes to keep flying. Look at the last 50 years. This has happened SEVERAL TIMES!
The next step is to negotiate with the subs to either market factory made parts or make them themselves for sale to us and the factory. Once all of the parts needed are available you start to build new planes on a "you order it and we will build it" basis. The market is WAY to weak to have aircraft sitting on a ramp for sale. If you build a plane without a standing buyer you will LOOSE MONEY every day it sits for sale because your capital is tied up in a product with a very slim profit margin. In no time at all you are selling at a loss because of the loss of income on your investment in the plane. DON'T BUILD A PLANE UNLESS THERE IS SOMEONE STANDING THERE WITH CASH IN HAND BEFORE YOU START ASSEMBLY!!!!
A good first start is to bring in planes for restoration, but there is a real loss of trust for the factory because of what the past owners did. I would do something like that, but I would want to BE THERE when it was being done, and that is probably not a reasonable solution. The factory could buy basket cases and rebuild them, but again, that is tying up their financial resources until they have a buyer for the plane. Another profit center for the factory is to offer repair and major work for other types like covering and painting other tube and rag types. It keeps your labor force busy with profitable work and the more time between recovers by your labor force the lower the quality. The fabric guys need steady work so Taylorcraft has a reputation for only the BEST quality finishes. That takes practice. It may not make logical sense but a plane is judged by the quality of the paint. Ask any of our wives.
The last and most important step is to KEEP THE TRIBE INVOLVED. The more we know what is going on the more we will trust the new management. We EXPECT the factory to have problems. We WILL understand the problems, but we WILL NOT understand keeping the problems secret! We will be your greatest resource or fixing your problems. We WANT this to work. We are not just your customers, we are your sales force, your knowledge base and your family. You only bought the factory because we didn't get there first. We WANT YOU TO SUCCEED! Let us help.
Hank

**LostnSpace** · 12-31-2009, 14:41

Re: Whispers of the North

Whenever I think of Taylorcraft trying to build airplanes, I keep thinking of Jim Richmond out in Yakima, WA. and how he started out tinkering with Super Cubs, repairing them, then working on upgrades thru STC's, then getting parts from Piper and building PA-18's, then having Piper tell him they think that is no longer a good idea, go away, and by then Jim has all the jigs for repair and building from scratch, so he complies and out comes the Top Cub, then years later he gets to thinking of an LSA aircraft and out comes the Sport Cub, but it took a long, long time. I wish the new Taylorcraft owners the best for the coming new year, whoever they may be, and I hope they introduce themselves to us sometime soon, gary

**mikerice** · 12-31-2009, 16:55

Running a Taylorcraft Factory from my Arm Chair

Lets say I just bought a BUNCH of Taylorcraft tooling, and I'm pretty good with figuring out what I have, and how to make a part. (Big assumption, ask Univair)

Lets sell some parts to Taylorcraft owners for 100 bucks each. Materials and labor cost 40%, so I make $60 on each part I sell. (Big assumption, ask Wag Aero)

Now how many parts do I need to sell to stay open (break-even)?

I pay the rent and utilities (5000/mo) and one salary (5000/month) to answer phones, QA parts, package and ship parts, and maintain FAA approvals. (Can't be done with one person, due to FAA separation of duties, but maybe I work for free?).

Lets see, 10,000/mo divided by 60 bucks profit a part is 167 parts per month, every month to keep the doors open. That may be doable, with marketing expenses (not included) and a lot of orders every month from the Taylorcraft forum.

Lets assume there is no need to repay a loan for the tooling, pay materials and labor up front and that all necessary FAA approvals are in place. (Big assumption, ask Wells Fargo and the FAA).

I am a betting man, but I personally did not have 10,000 a month to see how good my assumptions and math are.

I give all the credit to the current owners and all the previous owners, back to C.G Taylor and Bill Piper who had the balls to pull out their wallets and give it a try.

**Hank Jarrett** · 12-31-2009, 17:40

Re: Whispers of the North

And that's why the new owners need to move forward with their eyes WIDE open and we need to be ready to tell them what we will pay for and how much we can pay. When WE were talking about buying Taylorcraft some of the big assumptions we had were;
1. The Foundation would own the rights
2. We would have no marketing costs
3. We would have no salaries
4. We would have no formal "factory" at the start
5. We would make parts to start and not build airplanes until there was a buyer in hand
6. (THE BIG ONE) We would NOT make a profit!
Even with these assumptions some of the business types said it couldn't be done. We need to be ready to help make this work. The easiest way to make a small fortune building airplanes is to start with a large one.
Hank

**mikerice** · 12-31-2009, 20:27

Re: Whispers of the North

The problem as I see it, is the tooling storage costs. There is a large amount of steel tooling at the Factory for making all the parts for BC12D, F19 and F22 aircraft. Just moving and storing this stuff takes considerable space, and no matter how you cut it, that costs money. It just cannot be stored in a garage or three or four...

As Hank noted with the rear window frames, the piece is not too complex, but the beading requires a tool most of us don't have. I'll bet money the factory has it and the die to stamp the blank.

The rack to hold the templates to cut the aluminum blank, the tool to stamp it, and its shelving, the press to hold the tool, and parts bin to store the finished part, and already my garage is full!

I agree, that the new Factory will have to focus on parts that people will buy and are difficult to source elsewhere. My best wishes go out to the new owners for success in the New Year 2010.

**Hank Jarrett** · 12-31-2009, 20:49

Re: Whispers of the North

When we only want to make ONE, the tooling is pretty simple. I made my instrument panel from flat sheets of aluminum with a hammer and dolly. It also took MONTHS of tapping to do it. It has been years and my parrot still does a great imitation of the tapping sound (with the head bobbing to go with it).
I have done beading like on the 45 "D" frames with a hammer, a turned broom stick and a routed die, but it takes FOREVER and you waste a lot of aluminum learning the techniques. There is pretty much NOTHING on a Taylorcraft you can't make in a garage if you have the time and patience to learn. That has nothing to do with a factory making parts for sale. They have to make a profit. My 45 would be worth a FORTUNE if I could get my labor costs back out, and it is still a bare fuselage.
Hank

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**Guest** · 01-01-2010, 07:00

Re: Running a Taylorcraft Factory from my Arm Chair

Originally posted by mikerice View Post

Lets say I just bought a BUNCH of Taylorcraft tooling, and I'm pretty good with figuring out what I have, and how to make a part. (Big assumption, ask Univair)

Lets sell some parts to Taylorcraft owners for 100 bucks each. Materials and labor cost 40%, so I make $60 on each part I sell. (Big assumption, ask Wag Aero)

Now how many parts do I need to sell to stay open (break-even)?

I pay the rent and utilities (5000/mo) and one salary (5000/month) to answer phones, QA parts, package and ship parts, and maintain FAA approvals. (Can't be done with one person, due to FAA separation of duties, but maybe I work for free?).

Lets see, 10,000/mo divided by 60 bucks profit a part is 167 parts per month, every month to keep the doors open. That may be doable, with marketing expenses (not included) and a lot of orders every month from the Taylorcraft forum.

Lets assume there is no need to repay a loan for the tooling, pay materials and labor up front and that all necessary FAA approvals are in place. (Big assumption, ask Wells Fargo and the FAA).

I am a betting man, but I personally did not have 10,000 a month to see how good my assumptions and math are.

I give all the credit to the current owners and all the previous owners, back to C.G Taylor and Bill Piper who had the balls to pull out their wallets and give it a try.

Nice analysis Mike.

Then there's that pesky liability insurance.

Then there is the added complexity needing to sell not just 167 random part numbers per month but rather 167parts of a p/n that you have set up to produce.

I suspect that it would be great to sell 167 strut to spar attach fittings every month (they may be close to $100) for example.

But the demand is likely not that high so you have to make some tail wheel springs (for example) and that may still not get you to the needed minimum break even revenue of $10,000/month (profits would require $16,700/month = 167 parts x $100) so you have to keep adding part numbers to your "inventory" in order to acheive the desired revenue.

Every time you add a part number to the inventory the costs go up again. I suspect that the turnover rate for any one T-craft part is very low. Try to think of any one part that you replace once a year. There are something like 1800 airplanes (I think). If we can think of one part that is changed once per year then that part might sell 150 units per month.

Gasculator gaskets come to mind.

Not trying to be entirely negative here however the parts alone business looks marginal to me.

**Hank Jarrett** · 01-01-2010, 07:16

Re: Whispers of the North

And one problem with the Gascolator gaskets example is, most of us would cut one out ourselves to save money, or just get it from Tractor Supply, where their customer base allows for economy of scale!
No market, no profit. No profit, no survival. I would start with bungees and anything consumable that I could convince everyone they should be changing out (NOT by creating a bogus AD!).
Hank

See? This is a TOUGH PROBLEM!

Reminds me of one of my first business plans. My professor said it didn't look like it could make a profit. I answered that I would be "Non-profit, but not on purpose". It was an aviation design company, and it didn't ever get off the ground. Good ideas don't necessarily make money (or even break even).

**RobertP** · 01-01-2010, 07:57

Re: Whispers of the North

This all seems very negative to me! If it was happening in the UK I would say they were in it for the Real Estate value of the Factory site and 2 years down the line a housing estate would suddenly appear with houses at 150K each and a vague promise to the local Council to provide something for young First time buyers which never materialised! But there again I don't know how things work with you guys so I hope my mistrust of "Knights in shining armour" and "business interests" is not well founded!

One things for sure if they intend to make this work they will be in touch with the Forum soon and "no news is not good news!" after all making contact with your "on tap market" which are desperate for your product is not Rocket Science!

I wish them well for 2010 as long as they stick to their promises if not well --!

**Hank Jarrett** · 01-01-2010, 08:32

Re: Whispers of the North

No real estate value in the "Factory". Harry didn't leave any buildings or real property, only unpaid bills, so I don't see that as a worry. What I understand they bought is the "paper" making them the owners, the tooling and some parts with dubious ownership trails. I think the buyers bought it with a serious intent to build new airplanes and are quiet because they are now seeing how big a job this is. I am cautiously optimistic about them. I would rather hear nothing and assume they are actually looking at the job ahead than hear a bunch of promises and rosy BS that they are going to resurrect the golden age of light plane manufacturing.
We have lots of talent to help if they ask (even some true "rocket scientists" if they need it) and most of it is probably free. I am imagining they are trying to figure out what they have gotten themselves into right now.
Hank

If WE had bought it I would be seriously looking at working for Taylorcraft right now, most likely at no pay. I have a feeling they ARE in touch with some people in the tribe, but those folks are playing fairly close to the vest for now.

**Forrest Barber** · 01-01-2010, 08:50

Re: Whispers of the North

This thread sure jumped, however I must have done a good thing when I mentioned build the F-19 ; make sure you understand that I meant ; that is AFTER all parts are being built again, a airplane is the "sum of its parts".
YES they have a list of the most needed parts.

NOW please check out www.sracompany.com and see what they do now:

"SRA is a service company focused on supporting the maquiladora industry. Having served many maquila plants, we are aware of the "High Quality Requirements" and take pride in meeting the needs of all concerned. SRA is a service company focused on supporting the automotive, electronical, electrical and plastic industries, located through out the U. S., Canada and the maquiladora & manufacturing industries. "

The maquiladoro industry is the method of $2.75 skilled labor with no duties either way. check it out with google.
Why go to China , the Czech Rebublic and all the other ones. At least I can fly my Taylorcraft to Brownsville or Mexico very easily

I have tried to open a line of communication, Perhaps they are out for a "Mexican minute".
See the latest TAYLORCRAFTER NEWSLETTER. Perhaps they are feeling out who to talk to on our side of the fence. Keep the comments coming to this thread and I am sure Bob or Rob or God can switch it to a new Thread under comments on the NEW FACTORY AQUISITION......

In the mean time ; HAPPY NEW YEAR ! I am off to the local nursing homes to check on my friends and relatives. Five funerals two weeks ago and two this week!!

**N96337** · 01-01-2010, 08:50

Re: Whispers of the North

The last thing they need to think of is building planes! That's already played out as a bottomless pit how many times?? The next thing they DON'T need to think of is the "foundation" buying and producing stuff... that isn't gonna be a good thing either... most can't even get an email answered from there, never the less any sort of actual production of parts. It's a nice dream, but the workers of the organization here are too far spread and things go undone too often and too long for me to ever envision anything getting done that way. Hopefully, the new owners will get into some small scale production of parts and be happy doing that...then down the road if things go right, they could expand their horizons just a bit at a time. An old and wise friend of mine once told me "let them FORCE you into business"........best advice I've ever gotten. I agree that their ominous lack of presence here on the forum is a negative. I'd be all over a "captive" audience, but who knows.
As far as all the hoopla of the Taylorcraft "tribe" or owners or whatever you want to call us, I don't see it being a huge market or benefit, or Univair, WagAero or the others would've been capitalizing on that already...they're not dumb by any means, and have the resources at hand, so if it was a biggie, I'd think they'd pounce on it.
I'm guessing I'll be building most of the parts I'll be needing.
JH

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