Harer (Barber) STC update

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

No mystery ; Bob Harer and I had the agreement that the Foundation would pay him $1500.00 plus 50% of the net to him or his widow for 5 years. He knew life was short. He died ; I called her twice, made the arrangement to go back and do it. She could not find the STC to sign over. I had the NY ACO in on the act and with the CLE MIDO on board I then called and explained to her that I would bring the paper work back with me and the check. At that point , she said her son ; a night manger at Wal-Mart had a friend that "flew airplanes" and they wanted to keep it themselves.
I check each 3 months or so and get no positive response ; IT is the same with the Model D Type certificate ; the owners just didn't want to do anything and agve it to the PIMA Air Museum.
The same seems to be true with the present Taylorcraft factory and those TC's.
ALL this is discussed with the Foundation Board of Director's at our meetings. There are a lot of copies out there, someone needs to do it again under their name and reap the profits!! I still just do it on an individual basis using a copy of the STC as "acceptable data" . Check with your IA's they should understand how to do it.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

At that point , she said her son ; a night manger at Wal-Mart had a friend that "flew airplanes" and they wanted to keep it themselves.

Forrest, perhaps Mrs. Harer should get a letter from the Foundation outlining clearly and in full detail all the liabilities, technical complexities, federal reporting requirements, and paperwork problems related to STC ownership. The letter should explain that the holder of the STC is the one to whom the FAA will refer any and all lawyers calling about lawsuits and billion dollar wrongful earache verdicts. Also the STC holder is the one to whom the Foundation will refer any technical inquiries, and will refer people demanding to know how "tab A fits into slot B", etc. at all hours of the night.

The letter should remind Mrs. Harer that the liability chain, regulatory chain, and flight safety responsibility chain all run right through the living room (and bank account) of the STC holder... and that the Taylorcraft Foundation wants to actually give her money to take all that responsibility.

The only question is... where are you going to find the kind of brimstone-spewing, fear-inspiring SOB writer who could create such a horrific letter?

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

I volunteer to proof read that sucker!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

She is supposed to be a nice lady who lost her husband. I would vote for a gentle approach (which I think Forrest is going for). Maybe the fire and brimstone should be held for the son and his friend at the QuickMart.
Hank

[akndrifter]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

Can't there be a gentle approach that still lays out the facts? I think if I didn't know about that kind of responsibility/liability I would want to know!

[lfries]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

Sounds like the Kid thinks he may have a lucrative deal on his hands. It would be interesting to know how many stc's were sold in the last 5 to 10 years. Perhaps then he would realize he won't be able to take an early retirement.
Perhaps the 50% of the NET is a stickler to the deal. Its not difficult to reduce the NET. Perhaps just offering her a flat amount per STC sold would be better solution.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

She is supposed to be a nice lady who lost her husband. I would vote for a gentle approach (which I think Forrest is going for). Maybe the fire and brimstone should be held for the son and his friend at the QuickMart.
Hank

Oh I know... I'm just stamping my feet and spewing a little brimstone out of frustration... it just miffed me that she apparently made one deal and then backed out of it, and that she didn't give Forrest a chance to plead his case. A five minute conversation between Forrest and the family members (yes, including the consumer retail mogul) would have resulted in everyone being happy.

I never met Jack Gilberti or Bob Harer, but I would bet that they would want that STC in the hands of the Foundation and that they would want their families to have a little income out of it but none of the liability.

[flyguy]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

How about, "Can I talk to the Kid?"
DC

[barnstmr]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

No mystery ; ALL this is discussed with the Foundation Board of Director's at our meetings. There are a lot of copies out there, someone needs to do it again under their name and reap the profits!! I still just do it on an individual basis using a copy of the STC as "acceptable data" . Check with your IA's they should understand how to do it.

Since we are on the subject of legalities, I would like to know how someone else can be allowed to use data that they do not legally own and have not been given permission to use. As I am aware, Mr. Harer issued a letter with the following statement for all of the STC's he sold...

"This letter gives the authority to use STC # SAI-210, on this specific airplane: model # ____, serial # ____, year ____. It is a federal violation to use this STC on any other airplane. This letter must stay with the STC paperwork at all times... Approved by:_____ (C.R. Harer)."

It seems pretty clear to me that if anyone uses Mr. Harer's data without a written letter of permission, there would be legal grounds for the family to bring a lawsuit.

Am I missing something?

[Guest]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

You are correct, here are the regulations :

§ 21.120 Responsibility of supplemental type certificate holders to provide written permission for alterations.
A supplemental type certificate holder who allows a person to use the supplemental type certificate to alter an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller must provide that person with written permission acceptable to the FAA.
[Doc. No. FAA–2003–14825, 71 FR 52258, Sept. 1, 2006]



§ 91.403 General.
(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter.

(b) No person may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alterations on an aircraft other than as prescribed in this subpart and other applicable regulations, including part 43 of this chapter.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft for which a manufacturer's maintenance manual or instructions for continued airworthiness has been issued that contains an airworthiness limitations section unless the mandatory replacement times, inspection intervals, and related procedures specified in that section or alternative inspection intervals and related procedures set forth in an operations specification approved by the Administrator under part 121 or 135 of this chapter or in accordance with an inspection program approved under §91.409(e) have been complied with.

(d) A person must not alter an aircraft based on a supplemental type certificate unless the owner or operator of the aircraft is the holder of the supplemental type certificate, or has written permission from the holder.
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34311, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91–267, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001; Amdt. 91–293, 71 FR 56005, Sept. 26, 2006]

[N96337]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

Sounds to me like it's a good thing that she at least has one son that's somewhat looking out for her best interests! All I'm seeing is vultures circling!I wonder why, if Mr.Harer was so worried about the STC going to the "foundation", he didn't sign it over before he died???? Or even put something in writing????? Forrest states that "he knew life was short".. and by the sounds of it, they discussed the STC, so why wasn't something put in place at that time???? In my opinion, the offer of $1500 is like a slap in the face....I'd be hesitant to offer even 3 times that amount. I would hope my wife has better sense in the event of my death, than to take a sum like that for the STC I own! The whole thing stinks to high heaven to me! I sure hope someone can come forth with a legitimate offer and can obtain the STC for the future. I can't imagine a letter like Bill suggested going out to her... I'd be so ashamed to see something like that happen....talk about "strongarm" manipulation!!! This STC has been around for a long time, and there haven't been any liability issues with it. You should be ashamed of that idea.
John

[VictorBravo]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

I can't imagine a letter like Bill suggested going out to her... I'd be so ashamed to see something like that happen....talk about "strongarm" manipulation!!! This STC has been around for a long time, and there haven't been any liability issues with it. You should be ashamed of that idea.

It was an idea that was based on a report that she agreed to one thing, and then backed out of it... and then the additional idea that someone who likely did not know how to manage an STC was going to wind up with it... and that the entire STC might evaporate or become even more convoluted and confusing than it is already.

That was the issue which prompted me to write that post.

I did not come up with the $1500 figure, and it is not my place to say what the value is. However also remember that the offer included an additional percentage royalty for five years. Agreed, my STC is worth quite a bit more to me than $1500.

Sorry I offended anyone

[freightpilot27]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

You are correct, here are the regulations :

§ 21.120 Responsibility of supplemental type certificate holders to provide written permission for alterations.
A supplemental type certificate holder who allows a person to use the supplemental type certificate to alter an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller must provide that person with written permission acceptable to the FAA.
[Doc. No. FAA–2003–14825, 71 FR 52258, Sept. 1, 2006]



§ 91.403 General.
(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter.

(b) No person may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alterations on an aircraft other than as prescribed in this subpart and other applicable regulations, including part 43 of this chapter.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft for which a manufacturer's maintenance manual or instructions for continued airworthiness has been issued that contains an airworthiness limitations section unless the mandatory replacement times, inspection intervals, and related procedures specified in that section or alternative inspection intervals and related procedures set forth in an operations specification approved by the Administrator under part 121 or 135 of this chapter or in accordance with an inspection program approved under §91.409(e) have been complied with.

(d) A person must not alter an aircraft based on a supplemental type certificate unless the owner or operator of the aircraft is the holder of the supplemental type certificate, or has written permission from the holder.
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34311, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91–267, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001; Amdt. 91–293, 71 FR 56005, Sept. 26, 2006]

This is correct. HOWEVER........
Right now anyone can use the data for there own STC since SA1-210 is now considered defunct according to the NY ACO office. (Its under there jurisdiction)

[Guest]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

Hi Bob,

Did you talk with the NY ACO? ie that comes from them?

Its an interesting twist.

Dave

[freightpilot27]

Re: Harer (Barber) STC update

yes, I have DTW FSDO, NY ACO, and Chicago ACO involved.