propping your t craft

[n6346m]

Re: propping your t craft

I have always been a firm believer in turning off the fuel valve prior to starting the engine. If something does go wrong, the airplane won't go far. In 1973 when I first started hand propping an airplane on a regular basis (65 HP Mooney Mite) I discovered that getting the starting idle correct was always guesswork. Sometimes a little too fast and sometimes a little too slow and the engine would die. Marking the throttle quadrant helped a little but with the inevitable slop you get in the cable/linkage, it was still guesswork.
I now set the throttle for the desired RPM at shut-down and I don't touch it again until the engine is started. The selection of the shut-down RPM varies a little depending on whether I anticipate a re-start within one or two hours or an early morning Alaskan cold start.
The subject of starting on skis has not been mentioned here and probably could start a whole new thread. Hand-propping on skis has a whole new set of challenges when there is no convenient car, tree, rock, tie-down or chocks to be had.
Float flying has its own challenges. I had an acquaintance in Juneau that used his J-3 to go fishing off the floats, both in freshwater lakes and in open saltwater for halibut (that's another whole story in itself). When not starting from a dock or shore, he would shut off the fuel valve and attach a bungee cord to the right rudder prior to hand-propping on the float. He figured that if he ever fell off the floats the airplane would go around in a circle until the carburetor ran out of fuel and he could swim to the airplane and climb aboard before he became hypothermic. As far as I know, in all the years he fished like this he never had to try out his theory.

[Chet Peek]

Re: propping your t craft

Cant resist--

I've propped planes since 1939, and so far this system has worked.

I am usually alone, so I tie the plane to a dead-man ring in font of my hangar with a rope that would lift the plane. Half hitch to the lift handle. Crack the throttle.

Stand on BOTH feet about 18 inches from the prop. Put both hands on about midpoint with only tlhe first finger joint over the blade. I was tought not to swing your one leg, lest the grass is sllppery.

Flip the blade down, I have two impulses so it always starts, and you don't need speed.

Pull the half hitch loose and climb in.

Actually, if you are just careful, any method is OK

Chet Peek

[high time cub]

Re: propping your t craft

Ditto Chet.

And "back in the day" (when everyone smoked), the old pros would walk up, prop, step back, and never drop the long ash dangling from their cigarette!

Now that was great "Theatre", with real "props".

HT

[Chet Peek]

Re: propping your t craft

But I never smoked! However I do seem to remember taking a drink and chasing women on occasion.

One thing I forgot to mention. I turn the switch ON from the beginning. It will start when ready and it teaches you to repect the prop.

Chet

[dennispip]

Re: propping your t craft

Hopefully no teaching will be done by the prop!!!

But as they always say, Always consider EVERY prop to be hot at all times because it only takes one little loose (ground) wire for that to be the case from what I understand.

[gfortin]

Re: propping your t craft

Amen to that!

[Forrest Barber]

Re: propping your t craft

I still teach the leg swing and try to do it when the newbies are watching. It does get you going the right way. My first ( as I said many times) was a BT-13 , that is the 450 P&W , pull through a few blades, l set it properly just before TDC and swing away..... the second one was a 65 Lyc on a Vagabond with a bad switch , fired on the 4th blade, I was still using the leg swing, thank goodness. I prop from behind on the Cub & Tcraft, Slick impulse mags work GREAT! Most important is to let the impulse work if installed. Pull easy and let it fire. ANY OX-5 guys out there where if you set her at the right place and hit the booster to let her fire with no swing?
What a sight.

[Pearson]

Re: propping your t craft

Well I guess I am a relative newcomer to this hand propping thing. I haven't been at it nearly as long as Chet or Forrest. But I have been doing it for well over ten years, and, knock on wood, I've never had a scary incident.

I like what Chet says about being careful. If you are careful and thinking about what you are doing, I think that is the best advice anyone could give.

Of course common sense tells us that a properly timed engine, with good mags, and generally in good mechanical shape will be safer to start than one with problems.

But another important aspect is are we in good mechanical shape for engine start. Are you awake? Do you have get thereitus? Are you thinking about doing your taxes, finding a job, etc, etc? When I am hand propping I always tell myself, "you can get hurt doing this".

As far as technique, I like to use the behind the prop method.

Someone above mentioned the throttle setting. I was taught to start with the throttle cracked about 1/8". I used this method for awhile with mixed results. Sometimes it would start fairly easy, other times it took many swings before she fired.

I bought a book from Sacramento Sky Ranch that changed my start procedure. After priming by turning the prop through 8-14 blades, depending on outside temp, I now start with the throttle fully CLOSED when the engine is cool.

By standing on the right side, just in front of the strut and holding onto the rear edge of the windshield tube area, I can easily reach the prop to pull her through and still get to the throttle when it catches. When it starts, I have about two seconds to just bump the throttle in a little. Then I get ahold of it to fine tune it to a good idle speed.

If the engine has been run within the previous couple of hours, I will crack the throttle 1/8" and prime very little, if at all. It depends on the OAT.

I shut the fuel valve off after priming as an added safety measure. But the main thing is that I focus on the task at hand. I was once trying to start and I think flooded the engine. It was a cool day and I was getting frustrated. I realized that I was getting frustrated and decided to go have a cup of coffee in the FBO. One of the old timers there said he had been watching me and offered to help. We went out and had it going in a minute or two. The best thing I ever did was to walk away until I got my head right. If your head isn't into it, you are flirting with disaster.

[mulwyk]

Re: propping your t craft

Richard: What's that sky ranch book called?

[Pearson]

Re: propping your t craft

Sky Ranch Engineering Manual by John Schwaner

Sacramento Sky Ranch 916 421-7672

[ricky]

Re: propping your t craft

Hey guy,the way I prop my bird,my hangar is right beside hydro pole with supporting cable,tie tail wheel down,with the new sheiled wire,she start
with one flip of prop,do my run up,when she ready to go.

[lawheelock]

Re: propping your t craft

Back when I had my first BC12D (1964-1969)the old WWII mag switch had become unreliable, so I installed a new Bendix key switch on the right side of the panel which I could easily reach through the original type slider window while standing behind the prop. After appropriate priming, it would always start on the first blade with me behind the prop with one hand on the prop and the other on the key switch. Throttle was closed to the idle stop. The reason an engine starts better with the throttle closed (provided the idle speed is set properly) is that the throttle plate then acts as a choke and all the manifold vacuum generated by the intake piston going down is not bled off by a partially opened throttle and serves to "suck" fuel from the idle jet in the carb which is on the engine side of the throttle plate.
My O-360 in my Mooney and my 150hp Franklin in my Stinson (both have starters, but I have propped both) always start easiest also with the throttle completely closed.
I was taught to keep the throttle closed by my old flight instructor back in 1959 on cubs and super cruisers. He had been an instructor for Roscoe Turner teaching pilots in the CPT program in Taylorcrafts.
Larry Wheelock, restoring BC12D N96179

[NC95842]

Re: propping your t craft

As for me, I got an anchor rope from west marine $15, tied it to a tree so that the loop end goes about to where my handle is on the back of the plane, than I run the free (longer end) through the handle than through the loop end, than I tie it up to the left lift strut.

I like the behind the prop thing on the right side, than I can walk round, or just climb through and untie the line form the strut and go! The rope pulls out fine and the plane was never out of control.

-J

[n6346m]

Re: propping your t craft

Larry,
I usually see more of you an the Stinson site, It's nice to see you here occasionally. You have good taste in airplanes (except for the small tail thing).I have a couple of questions for you. First is your T-Craft a 65hp? Second which carburetor do you have, Stromberg or Marvel?

I find your procedure for throttle closed to idle Idle for starting interesting. I see you live in Indiana where you have a seasonal climate. Does your procedure involve readjusting the Idle mixture and throttle stop differently for winter and summer operation? I find that here in Alaska, my L-2 will definitely not idle at the same low RPM in the winter as it does in the summer until the engine has warmed up, even with pre-heat. It can never decide if it's winter or summer around here with one day hot and the next morning cold.
Anyone who has had a hand-propped airplane very long usually has developed a technique for their particular airplane that works for them but it's always nice to learn new tricks from others sometimes. The technique I use works well for me and my engine always starts on the first or second pull every time.
This is my third C-65 I have owned. The others were in a Mooney Mite and a BC-12D and all used a different starting technique. The toughest one to learn was the proper combination for starting was my BC-12D which had no primer and no impulse couplings on the old Bendix Scintilla magnetos. That was in Southern California where great temperature swings were rare.
Just my 3.7 cents worth

Back when I had my first BC12D (1964-1969)the old WWII mag switch had become unreliable, so I installed a new Bendix key switch on the right side of the panel which I could easily reach through the original type slider window while standing behind the prop. After appropriate priming, it would always start on the first blade with me behind the prop with one hand on the prop and the other on the key switch. Throttle was closed to the idle stop. The reason an engine starts better with the throttle closed (provided the idle speed is set properly) is that the throttle plate then acts as a choke and all the manifold vacuum generated by the intake piston going down is not bled off by a partially opened throttle and serves to "suck" fuel from the idle jet in the carb which is on the engine side of the throttle plate.
My O-360 in my Mooney and my 150hp Franklin in my Stinson (both have starters, but I have propped both) always start easiest also with the throttle completely closed.
I was taught to keep the throttle closed by my old flight instructor back in 1959 on cubs and super cruisers. He had been an instructor for Roscoe Turner teaching pilots in the CPT program in Taylorcrafts.
Larry Wheelock, restoring BC12D N96179

[VictorBravo]

Re: propping your t craft

Forgive me for berating this, but re-stating the following point could make someone think twice about one itsy bitsy teensy tiny little thing.

If you are standing still in front of (or behind) the propeller and swinging the (starboard) blade downward to start it, chances are you are swinging your arms downward at a fairly brisk pace. If the engine is in a bad mood, which it will do once in a while no matter how well you "prep" for the startup, you will be putting more and more of your upper body force into the swing.

So far, so good?

Now dear friends, please try this little test: Stand still in the center of an open field or lush green meadow, someplace pretty so you can remember this moment, and throw your arms downward hard pretending to start a difficult, flooded, or temperamental engine.

While throwing your arms downward in a swift, forceful "you're gonna start this time you little bastard" manner, pay attention to which direction your head and your upper body is moving... towards your imaginary propeller or away from it.

Most of us are "hinged" at the waist, and throwing the arms down will result in your upper body and your head inertia moving forward.

That's in the general the direction of the !($*^% propeller !

So now I've got most of you a bit annoyed and irritated because I'm writing this out in a pretty smart-aleck fashion... sue me

Here's the part where I make some of you downright pissy:

Now imagine that you are bending forward like that, feeling kinda bad about your head moving into a spinning propeller, and the best "escape path" you could have had (directly away from the propeller) is blocked by the !($*% airplane wing, the struts, and the landing gear.

Feeling a little shaky about starting from behind yet?

Several people have written about tying the plane down, chocks, etc. which are all of course 100% valid. So let's say that you have the airplane tied down and completely immobilized with the main and tail wheels in poured concrete and an Oak tree against the leading edge of both wings...

Standing behind the propeller of a totally immobilized airplane, throwing your hands downward with your chest and your head following suit - your head is STILL moving toward the propeller instead of away from it. Standing still in front of the propeller is almost as bad from the upper body standpoint, which is why I've advocated the whole olde tyme leg swing maneuver.

To me, this entire "start from behind or from the front" question is about as obvious as the question of whether you should stick your head into the basket to see the Cobra or stand back and see it when it comes out to hear the flute player.