landings

[Dan Mahalak]

Hello All.

First off, i a m finishing my annual tonight, and I secured my Private liceanse last week with 55 hours, with the last few in a c-152.

I am having a hard time on my landings. I keep lifting a wheel. I am trying to hold it off the ground as long as possible in order to three point, but i seem to only be able to land tail low in a wheel landing config only. This brings me to my real question....what is more preferable for off airport landings.

Some here in Seward say that the tail should hit first, allowing for a slower touchdown speed, and less chance of nose over.

Others say that wheel landings are preferable in that one can see what the terrain is like ahead better, and if it is too soft, then a simple power on will lift the aircraft back into flight much easier.

So, tail landings or wheel landings?

and, any help to keep both wheels on the ground would be nice.

cheers.

[Victor Gisclair]

Landings

Practice, Practice, Practice, and then when you think you have it more Practice

[alwaysoar]

Landings

I think your tail low, wheel landings are a good place to start for several reasons, one of which is that your tail wheel will not take a beating on rough fields. Also you're already doing them fairly successfully. With the tail up off the ground at a slightly higher than 3-point landing speed, you will have more rudder effectiveness. You can also make more precise landings because you can control your touchdown point better than if you're floating on down the runway in typical T-Craft fashion. Many pilots I know make 3-point "full stall" landings only for the fun of it because they are not the best way to get on ground--a wheel landing is the best way, and a tail low wheel landing is a good compromise. Landing tailwheel before the main gear is a way to get it planted because once the main gear hits there's no more lift and you're down for good, but...you are clobbering the tail wheel and the tail spring bolts are notorious for breaking, and it's just a lot of stress back there. Do what you're doing, tail low wheel landings, and as you practice you can refine your technique over time.

Ed @BTV Vt
CFI-A,G,R/H TF 527

[alwaysoar]

landings

p.s. Unless you stand on the brakes, and have Clevelands or brand new brake linings in your Shinns (like the ones I am proud of that work like aces), then the potential for a nose-over is pretty slim. Remember, the CG is aft of the mains, and if you've ever picked up the tail of a T-Craft by hand you know it's pretty heavy. So if you wheel land, just let it slow down on its own, and you won't do a flip.

Ed @ BTV VT
TF 527 CFI-A

[Robert Lees]

Dan,

You will receive as many answers as there are folk answering. The debate between 3-point versus wheel landings is as old as the rocks, and will never be resolved, but you will receive many opinions as to which is better. My own is the 3-pointer with the tailwheel hitting first; the terrain forward (that you mention) should have been noted on the approach.

Everything you mention in your post has its merits under certain circumstances, but no-one can really educate you apart from yourself, after some appropriate introductory tuition from everyone you are happy to fly with, and also from the NTSB database.

My suggestion is to get some experience with both wheel and 3-point landings, in varying runway/wind conditions, hopefully with a selection of instructors, and then do what you are happy with. There are many Alaskan Taylorcraft pilots whom I am sure would be willing to help you out. And as Victor says, practice.

Rob

[dennispip]

Mr. Ambassador, the wisdom in this and all of your posts demonstrates that you are indeed "bonafide".

[Jim Hartley]

Ahhh! So many variables!

Dan, there is no definitive answer here. The reason for this is because every flight is different and generally every landing and take off is different because of what nature throws at you.

I always try to land at the lowest possible speed to be kind to my machine and if conditions permit that means a full stall power off tail first landing and if they are not I go for three point and if not I go progressively towards a wheel landing with power and forward elevator pressure and brakes to keep keep gusts from lifting a wing.

I practice slow flight, slips and simulated power failure landings quite often and I feel very comfortable with my airplane. In my opinion not enough time is spent with "seat of the pants training". It really depends on the type of flying you want to do.
You are at the point where specialized training is in order.

[CraigH]

I've only got about 25 hours time in my Tcraft, but have grown to favor 3pts over wheel landings myself. Started out prefering wheel landings, but as the plane became more familiar the 3pts seemed much easier (and shorter).

[Jim Hartley]

good point ...the three point..

Yes! With three point you are down. If you tend to lift, a little forward elevator pressure with aileron to the wind. I prefer the three point as you are level and cg is straight up and it feels best.

[matsuthunder200]

Dan Everyone has there own prefrance. The rule i go by is if you are on a runway wheel landings are kinda fun and i do one every once in awhile but. i have never done one off airport . Gravel bars, beaches, tundra, mountin sides, I always do a three point full stall landing. If it is soft it dosnt take much to be on your back from a wheel landing and in a full stall landing you are going alot slower. I have a few summers flying all around seward landed on most all the beaches what fun. I know what you will be doing having fun on the gravel bars and beaches.... There ust to be a good instructor there. next time you are at the airport stop by F.S. air ask them if they know how to get ahold of him he will check you out in a hour or two . you will find that landing isnt the tricky part its the judgement....

[Forrest Barber]

all is good! I have had to be off list for about 10days.... Glad to see that good advise is spreading on the list. EAch landing situation is different, you have to be ready to tranition quickly for the conditions. practice, practice them all!!

[Dan Mahalak]

that's great.

thumbs up everyone.

Thanks for all your opinions and advise. keep it coming if you think of something else. I am so glad to be a part of the taylorcraft history.

First round is on me!

[Dan Mahalak]

approach speed

hello all again.


Last night was a somewhat calm night here at PAWD, so I tried a number of different configs on landing.

Still feels like I am coming in "hot". Turning base and all the way in to short final, my approach speed is 60, indicated. Power setting is all the way back (idle) turning from downwind to base. RPM is 1000. Sound about right to you guys?

What speeds, (pitch and power) are your reliable setting for gettig the tcraft on the ground?

[barnstmr]

Dan,
Many of the seasoned pilots who have high time in many aircraft types will tell you that the basic rule of thumb that works for ALL types of airplanes is to approach at 1.3 Vso. For the BC65, Vso (stall speed) is approx 40 mph, so using the 1.3 method, you would approach at roughly 52-55 mph.

But I have my own technique that works for me in the BC65...and this is just my opinion. Approach speed depends on the type of landing I plan to do. I prefer to 3 point in almost all situations. However, I ALWAYS wheel land during gusty crosswind on pavement.

3-POINT LANDING
I always establish glide just prior to turning base at idle between 60-65 mph. Set trim for zero stick (control wheel) force to maintain this configuration. On final, I slow to between 55-60 mph....then as I try to be at about 50 mph over the fence. This helps me to flare to a smooth 3-point with minimal floating in ground effect, (the famous T-crafts float). If I am much faster than 50 over the fence, I will float for 1/4 of the runway. NEVER apply brakes unless the control wheel is firmly back into your gut. ALWAYS keep flying the airplane and dancing on the rudders all the way to parking.

WHEEL LANDING
Set trim for no stick force to maintain straight/level flight at 70 mph (approx 1800 rpm). Establish initial glide at idle / 65 mph during base and final. Then, actually let speed build to approx 70mph over the fence. Do not flare, but rather fly the mains on as if doing a high speed fly-by. If you have trim set properly, you will not use any back pressure to accomplish this. Any back pressure will result in a BOUNCY landing. Once the mains are planted...use forward stick (wheel) to keep wheels firmly on. (Many people have a hard time with this for fear of nosing over....But believe me the key to making a wheel landing stick and not bounce is to use significant forward pressure on the wheel.) Then on roll-out, keep the tail up as high as possible as the airplane slows until finally the tail will stall and drop on its own. DO NOT USE BRAKES until you have the control wheel firmly back in your gut when you do. Honestly, very little or no braking should be required for a short roll-out if you use heavy stick pressure forward to keep the mains planted. Much of your speed will bleed off due to the drag of having mainwheels firmly planted. Think of it as similar to the technique you use to raise the tail during your takeoff roll. ALWAYS keep flying the airplane and dancing on the rudders all the way to parking.

[M Jones]

This all good stuff. Makes me want to go flying after the storms pass by. As Rob mentioned, we seem to get this discussion going a couple of times a year.

I agree with Terry's technique too, but I have to say I don't depend on, or pay as much attention on the airspeeds. I'm not a pro, but I do have a few ratings. Instrument flying (when I was current) required a lot more attention to airspeed for timing reasons, and lack of visual reference of course. I glance at the AI occasionally in my Tcraft, but I really don't go by it much. It just feels right mostly. I do set up the down wind with airspeed, but then it's the look and feel of the horizon and runway, and the sound of things that works for me. Don't get me wrong, I've had some really ugly arrivals, but as others have said, "fly the wing". Flying gliders, we used 1.3 Vso plus 1/2 the wind speed. But then it is a glider, with no throttle……

I use a three point most of the time too. Wheel landings almost always on paved runways with a crosswind, and yes, rudder….rudder….proper stick position (repeat)….rudder….rudder….tie down, in all cases.