Project is home

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

You can use the glue over anything. You can make repairs right over paint any paint, just sand and apply. STC'd over any other fabric complete system. That means if you have dope finish and you get a rip you can just apply the patch right over it without stiching.

Here is what I have found out about the primer. The white metal primer is very thick, I thin it down. Wash everything up with water and you do not waste any money on thiners. The stuff is very tuff. The 170B you see in the photo was painted with SS. The owner did not want me to paint the door sill white because he said it would just get scuffed up and dirty. I told him it would not be a problem. After painting, climbing in and out for 2 weeks installing the clomplete new interior and panel you can see no evidence that anyone even climbed in once.

The primer is just as tuff. I dropped a filter on the floor and in the morning it would not come off. It ripped before departing the dirty floor!

You should not use powder coat on a fuselage. You cannot see cracks in the steel. Keep in mind also that the strength does not come from the fabric to metal it comes from the overlap of the fabric. The fabric to metal is just to keep it there to get it tightened. This is why you have a 1", 2", and 3" overlap requirement from the FAA on tapes and such.

The only thing that is a drawback of the SS paint is that it needs to have the waterborn primer. It does not like to go over other primers. The thing is the SS primer is better than anything else out there anyway so it is not much of a problem.

Dan

[mhorowit]

Re: Project is home

The only thing that is a drawback of the SS paint is that it needs to have the waterborn primer. It does not like to go over other primers. The thing is the SS primer is better than anything else out there anyway so it is not much of a problem.

Dan

Dan - the gospel is that if you prime, you need to paint. An exception to the rule is if you use 2-part epoxy you need not paint over it. Do you know if the SS primer needs to be painted or may we glue directly to it? Do you feel comfortable answering these questions or would you prefer we go directly to SS?- Mike

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

Dan - the gospel is that if you prime, you need to paint. An exception to the rule is if you use 2-part epoxy you need not paint over it. Do you know if the SS primer needs to be painted or may we glue directly to it? Do you feel comfortable answering these questions or would you prefer we go directly to SS?- Mike

Just prime using SS. From the factory it is just primed. By the way I already asked them.

Dan

[mhorowit]

Re: Project is home

Not only can you sand out Stewart Systems, but you then can buff it out to a nice shine if you do not go through the top coat.

I can tell you if it was brushed on with less than good results it was not done right. This stuff flows out very well. You can get almost as good a job with a brush (Foam) as you can with spraying it just takes a lot longer.

Dan

Dan - the procedure manual sez brush on 2 coats of the fill, then spray several more coats of the fill. I'm concerned about overspray, compressor noise and the capability of my compressor so I'd like to do as much brushing as I can. In the above paragraph are you suggesting one can brush on all the fill coats? - Mike

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

Dan - the procedure manual sez brush on 2 coats of the fill, then spray several more coats of the fill. I'm concerned about overspray, compressor noise and the capability of my compressor so I'd like to do as much brushing as I can. In the above paragraph are you suggesting one can brush on all the fill coats? - Mike

Mike I can say that you will not get overspray with the EcoFill. If you use a HVLP gun. I have done two planes and numerous parts and you still cannot tell I have been spraying in the shop.

Paint is another story.

You can brush (Foam) everything. Even paint.

This is what I would do if I was to brush it all on.

Use a wide foam brush. Don't forget to tip.

I will use different terms than they do. One "coat" is the combination of two cross coats, in my mind that would put a cross coat as 1/2 coat.

1/2 coat wait 10 min second 1/2 coat 90 deg from the first. Let dry 4 to 8 hours or over night.

Iron edges and lightly sand dust and stubble Don't over do it.

brush on a second full coat let dry 4 to 8 hrs or over night iron edges and lightly sand.

Brush on a third full coat....

Let this coat dry 12 hrs. Take your time and sand any ridges you have. You should be able to get it fairly smooth.

At this point you can just brush or roll on the paint. If you want a better finish brush on a white coat of primer and water sand it (Do not go through the white primer). This will give you a very smooth finish.

After you roll on the paint 4 or 5 coats (sounds like a lot it is not). let it dry 24 hrs then sand it smooth and rub it out to a brilliant shine. It is not hard to try this on your test piece, (2' x 2' 2x2 wood covered with fabric).

The ultra light guys only use one coat of paint for weight issues and they look very nice. If you want a lighter plane and can stand the look of the fabric weave it pays to put on less paint. After the Ecofill you really do not need anything else.

It will work the best if you can rotate the fuselage so you are always applying flat. It will flow right out.

Dan

[VictorBravo]

Re: Project is home

Dan and Mike, in general terms you are SUPPOSED to see the fabric weave through the paint. Just like a properly done RV metal airplane where you are supposed to see the flush rivets. Having a perfect mirror finish metal OR fabric airplane is usually evidence that there is something the guy is trying to hide. (Call 1-800 BONDO !!)

Surfaces with the fabric weave and the pinked edges of tape visible but all the same color and neatly done is the sign of a show quality covering job on fabric. It is NOT supposed to look like metal or shrinkwrapped plastic!

The big restoration experts (you know who you are!!) can chime in on this subject any time...

Dan, am I getting this right... you can BRUSH on all of the Eco Fill coats and they will flow out without brush marks???

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

You never get brush marks because you don't use a brush you use a foam applicator. It will flow nice if you rotate it as you go. You can always thin it a little if you want it to flow better but then it will take more coats. If you have not used it before use it first on a horiz. or a practice piece.

You will not see the weave with SS it is a high build primer filler. If you look real close you may see a hint of it. You will see the pinked edges.

It is hard to say that show quality fabric you will see the weave. Things change with newer products. Also it is what you want in the end that matters. For a fast plane where weight is not a factor a smooth finish is more desirable than a rough one. On a plane that can not haul a bunch and weight is an issue but speed is not then less is better because the roughness will not matter anyway. My Viking for instance will go much faster with a smooth finish. It is not a "trying to hide" anything it is about performance. Looks is also a factor. If you want a nice looking paint take a little time and sand apply and extra coat of paint. It is right in the SS manual. Still you are not trying to hide anything it is just a preference. It is not he same as using too much paint on a car. This stuff can be rolled up in a ball and still will not come off the fabric. I paint vinyl and then cut it and apply try that with regular paint.

By the way you can foam in the door edges and you cannot tell the difference.

Dan

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Project is home

Bull!

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

Bull!

Don't know what part you think is Bull, but here is some pics.

One is the yellow vinyl I painted Blue you can see the piece crumpled up.

next is crumpled piece layed out no yellow showing.

next is numbers and emblem on the 170B that was cut out of the yellow piece after being painted blue.

Still think it is bull stop by the booth at Airventure and crumple up a piece yourself.

I will take a pic of the Ecofill after being brushed on. I have to paint the second and third coats tomorrow on the tail feathers. All I have on them now is two cross coats of brushed on Ecofill.

Dan

[mhorowit]

Re: Project is home

Bull!

Forrest - several of us are hanging onto this thread, holding our breath.
could you please be a bit more specific? - Mike

[bashibazouk]

Re: Project is home

Interesting thread.

Here's my 2C worth. I just got done repainting the trim on my ship recently and used Polyfiber's process. I read the manual and I think I know where the difference is between the systems.

I think the reason Polyfiber should never be applied so thickly as to obscure the weave or pinking on the fabric is because when you put it on that heavily:

a) You risk the possibility of compromising the bond of the glue below
b) The MEK and other solvents will have a really hard time gassing off
c) When the color is that thick, it will crack along seams and tapes as the whole airframe vibrates in flight.

I am not familiar with the Stewart System so I'm taking a WAG here, but it sounds like a water-based system and is therefore completely different from Polyfiber or other solvent/vinyl systems. I can't for the life of me guess as to how it's able to bond to previous layers or blend without the benefit of a solvent in the mix, but I'm just a pilot and not a chemist. The argument that a thick layer of color is a sign of a bad finish job might just apply only to the older style of covering if, in fact the newer water-based systems can handle being applied thickly.

Seems like it might be a good way to go. Time will tell if it's better than Polyfiber or the like. I imagine there were detractors when the Stits system started displacing dope and cotton, too!

Josh

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

You are correct there, in using a chemical based system you have to be careful about what is down and what you are putting over the top. with a mechanical based product SS, it does not care what is down and has no effect on it. That is the reason that SS is the only FAA approved product that can go over anyone elses covering system with out stitching to repair rips and holes.

Polyfiber uses a poybrush to fill the weave then the UV blocker goes over the top. SS has the UV blocker in the primer filler so it encapsulates the fabric. A chemical based paint flashes off rather quickly leaving the texture of how it was applied. Water borne takes quite a while to flash off so it has plenty of time to flow. You are applying very thin layers they just flow together to make one.

SS is a mechanical bond it must have a sanded surface to attach. It will bond to SS without sanding for ten days then it must be sanded to bond.

If you are interested just call the factory in WA and they will send you a sample of product to try. If you tell them you talked to Dan Michaels in WI they will send you a little fabric, glue, primer/filler so you can see just how it works. All you need to do is make a frame from wood or metal and cover it. When you get done let it cure out then hit it with anything other than a sharp object over and over. You will see no damage. Then cut it off and roll it up in a ball, it will not come off the fabric or crack. If you wait a month for it to cure cut it in half and put one in water and one in 100LL. It will have no effect on it. They have had pieces in water and 100LL for over 2 years. They have also had the same sample piece that people have been hitting at Air venture for 3 or 4 years.

Dan

[N96337]

Re: Project is home

I'm not sure what Forrest is referring to either, but if it's the integrity of the system, he's totally off base. I've found that the people that criticise the system haven't had any experience with it...they just have an opinion.
I've got samples that I did early in '99, and were taken to Oshkosh, crumpled and straightened out for days on end, and are still able to be crumpled and straightened out without a crack. None of the others will do that... I've tried.
I've seen rolled on finishes (foam roller), and brushed on finishes (with a high quality bristle brush) done with this system "up close and personal", and I thought they were sprayed on. It's funny to see the reactions of people to it.
There's a "knack" to applying it, no matter if it's brushed, rolled or sprayed, and alot of people don't want to follow the directions to the letter, so they get a different result...then they blame the product. I've seen that hundreds of times. It's an easy product to apply, but not the same as what alot are used to...just different.
Don't knock it until you've given it a chance.
John

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

I'm not sure what Forrest is referring to either, but if it's the integrity of the system, he's totally off base. I've found that the people that criticise the system haven't had any experience with it...they just have an opinion.
I've got samples that I did early in '99, and were taken to Oshkosh, crumpled and straightened out for days on end, and are still able to be crumpled and straightened out without a crack. None of the others will do that... I've tried.
I've seen rolled on finishes (foam roller), and brushed on finishes (with a high quality bristle brush) done with this system "up close and personal", and I thought they were sprayed on. It's funny to see the reactions of people to it.
There's a "knack" to applying it, no matter if it's brushed, rolled or sprayed, and alot of people don't want to follow the directions to the letter, so they get a different result...then they blame the product. I've seen that hundreds of times. It's an easy product to apply, but not the same as what alot are used to...just different.
Don't knock it until you've given it a chance.
John

About the same reaction I get from people when they say "It's too dark in here to paint". I just tell them I do not really have to see, it is more of a flow and timing thing. I can acctually paint better when it is darker because I painted for 14 years at a body shop and when you see a dry spot you have to go right over it again (You HAVE to see what you are doing). With SS if you do that you make a mess. You look at the paint as your applying it and say "I missed that spot I better hit it again". That is why if it is darker you cannot see and just keep going making a very nice paint job in the end. I will say that it is a lot about TRUST when painting with SS. In the end it will cover everythig and all flow together.

Dan

[Dan Michaels]

Re: Project is home

This pic is not too great I do not have Macro. From farther away all you see is grey. I will keep brushing one panel while I spray the others.

Dan