Harry's STILL at the factory

[Aircraftman1]

Harry is STILL at the factory!... He is the "Senior Tech Advisor!" soooo, that means he is STILL making money from Taylorcraft owners!...

(in my opinion,) how can ANYONE have lied, cheated, and stolen from soooo many people in a group, and STILL be in the drivers seat in terms of being able to capitialize on that same group??? How??.. Isnt there ANYONE or ANYBODY that can FINALLY DELIVER the knock out punch to Harry Ingram, the menace to society?

[VictorBravo]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

The knockout punch to Harry may not come in a traditional way. Unfortunately the traditional methods of getting justice are not working because he is far enough under the radar for the federal government to care.

Like I said in similar threads, there has to be some OTHER government agency involved if the usual ones did not respond. Interstate commerce fraud, postal wire fraud, citizen's arrest, etc. all have to be looked at if the normal stuff does not work. Other options that I may personally support cannot be discussed here. On an unrelated note, unfortunately it has been far too many years since I had a few Italian uncles in Las Vegas as a child.

I fully believe this case needs to be tried in "the media", otherwise known as the crooked fourth branch of government. Unfortunately, the media has become the great equalizer, where the poor and downtrodden can have their say and exert some power. But the media is like the mafia, you have to figure out what they want out of the deal first, so they do what you want.

The media is also like the mafia, in that you can easily have something backfire and it gets very dangerous:

The downtrodden masses entice the media to run a story about a sleazy crook convincing a federal agency to do something questionable, so the crook makes money. The media starts drooling because they can embarrass a federal agency and raise the specter of cover-ups and all that. The federal agency closes ranks and turns the crook in to save their own hide, and the masses are overjoyed. A week later, the federal agency finds a way to make the masses' lives miserable over something else, and is never willing to work with the masses again.

The larger problem here, is that the entity who has apparently funded and allowed Harry Ingram to perpetrate this fraud, has not been made to pay any price for their part in this. There may be something that can be done about THAT. The first thing is a total boycott of doing business there. Voting with your wallet is legal, cost-free, easy, and causes immediate results in the other person's bank account. Making it a community-wide boycott, as a group instead of as individuals, makes an even clearer statement.

The way to put even more heat on that entity, is for the Taylorcraft Foundation members and individual aircraft owners to sign a petition of some sort, that is sent to the FAA and the attorney general of whatever state they are incorporated in.

The FAA in OKC or Washington, and the attorney general's office of wherever Harvey's Funhouse is based, needs to get a petition saying SOMETHINNG like...

"The holder of the type certificate A-696 is engaging in fraudulent behavior, and that they are not acting in the interest of air safety, and they are not upholding their various responsibilities as the TC holder... which in turn has caused great damage to the fleet, created mass confusion and potential air safety hazards, that they have actively and perhaps illegally sought to unduly influence a local FAA office, implicating the FAA in a potential consumer fraud, etc. etc. etc.

This has resulted in un-necessary and unprecedented credibility issues with the FAA, large numbers of aircraft owners losing faith in the FAA's AD and air safety regulations ... so that abnormally large numbers of owners and operators have abandoned strict adherence to the FAR's and are instead instituting their own "good faith" and "best efforts" safety and maintenance practices, which now differ from the FAR's....

"Because of the unprecedented breakdown in the long-trusted relationship between the FAA and the majority of the affected aircraft owners, due solely to one unscrupulous corporation and the people in charge of it, we feel the FAA needs to re-examine whether this type certificate should remain in the hands of such an entity..."

It's the same principle the FAA uses to take your pilot's license if you have too many drunk driving tickets. Even if you were not flying drunk, they justify it by saying that driving drunk is evidence of very poor judgment and moral character. There is no reason why the same principle cannot be invoked where stewardship of a Type Certificate and fleet-wide airworthiness concerns are involved.

The FAA should receive a petition that calls all of this into question and then indicates that...:

"The community of Taylorcraft owners, the type club and X number of individual owners is considering a class action suit to seek a court order for some sort of an involuntary transfer of the type certificate to some sort of court-appointed custodian."

(This class action suit may or may not be win-able form our point of view, but the time and cost to the FAA of being involved in it at all would be distasteful enough for them to at least play ball with us.)

The appropriate attorney general needs to get a similar petition, demanding his official stance in writing... on a fraudulent alliance between a corporation and a federal agency, involving public safety, interstate commerce, and potentially wire fraud is.

None of this stuff would be necessary if the normal channels had worked, but it appears they didn't.

I have never seen such a stupid and obviously bad business decision in my life, as Harvey Patrick and his company not divorcing themselves and their money from Harry Ingram at the earliest opportunity under these particular circumstances. Remaining associated with Harry on any level has damaged their credibility beyond any immediate repair in my personal opinion.

[CraigH]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

General Aviation News has done a few articles on Harry. Back in 2004, I was the only person willing to let GA News use my name in print. Many people were griping online about how they were screwed around by Harry and the factory, but one was willing to go on the record (and in print) and tell their story.

Pissing and moaning on a forum is one thing, but until people are willing to come forward, tell their story AND PUT THEIR REAL NAMES BEHIND IT don't expect much to happen.

[jstall]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

General Aviation News has done a few articles on Harry. Back in 2004, I was the only person willing to let GA News use my name in print. Many people were griping online about how they were screwed around by Harry and the factory, but one was willing to go on the record (and in print) and tell their story.

Pissing and moaning on a forum is one thing, but until people are willing to come forward, tell their story AND PUT THEIR REAL NAMES BEHIND IT don't expect much to happen.

Craig----------If you think I"ve been pissing and moaning, on this, or haven't come forth, let me clear your brain. My name is "JAMES K STALLINGS SR ALVA, OK, and I've been screwed out of 3649.00 dollars of hard earned money, and I have gone to the extreme in my opinion to rectify this situation so go smoke something different. I've been all over Texas, Washington DC
and more. I Don't respect your opinion

JS

[CraigH]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Whoa James - calm down there! I wasn't talking about you. There were several others back in 2004 who wouldn't come forward and publicly tell their stories. If they had, you might have had enough forewarning to not spend the money you did.

Looking at your user profile shows you didn't become a forum member until almost 2 years after the original story on Harry was written in GA News.

[lfries]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

How do we get Bill's recommended petition started.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Dear oh dear.

How many threads do we need?

[ROllerton]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Hey guys cool down a bit. We are all in this together, you know that.

[lfries]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Bills petition idea sounds pretty cool. So anyone who would sign it must be cool

[VictorBravo]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Guys, I am not intending to start a war that nobody else wants to wage. My struts are Univairs, and my airplane is maintained well enough that these inspections and AD's do not cause me any significant grief compared to many others.

I enjoy rattling the cages of those who deserve to be rattled, and it's good therapy for me to rant and rave if it entertains others to some degree.

I do stand behind anything I write, and I do think a stop should be put to this fraud.

But I truly am not trying to be an "agent provocateur", bait everyone else into a fight, then sit back and watch the fight. That is NOT my intent.

I'll leave it up to the group. If enough people are behind the idea I will cheerfully volunteer to draft a petition on behalf of those who have been ripped off, which does NOT include me.

This is, however, the right time for everyone in the group to be heard. All the people who have feelings about this should speak up, not just the loudmouths like myself.

I believe something needs to be done, and I'm happy to add whatever cleverness or wordsmithing that is wanted by the group. But this discussion should include everyone, not a just a few people. This is NOT the time to be shy, dear Taylorcraft enthusiasts...

[Aircraftman1]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

I want in on signing that petition!... Also, I think we should ALL call the factory numerous times apiece and raise Hell with Patrick about keeping Harry on the payroll!... "The squeeke wheel gets greased!".....Bob

[VictorBravo]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

I want in on signing that petition!... Also, I think we should ALL call the factory numerous times apiece and raise Hell with Patrick about keeping Harry on the payroll!... "The squeeke wheel gets greased!".....Bob

I believe that is the wrong thing to do (calling the factory). The problem is the caliber and mind-set of the owner of the entity (Patrick). If you raise enough hell that he makes some sort of a gesture to keep people quiet, even to the point of kicking Ingram out, there will be some other problem with boot cowls or elevator hinges or landing gears in 6 months and you will still be dealing with the same people.

IMHO what needs to be done is use the consumer market to "wag the dog" and force a change in the ownership out of the hands of any and all of the people involved. If Taylorcraft gets no calls, no parts orders, no strut orders, no coffee mug orders, there is no justification for paying the rent, paying the electricity, or keeping the company. No more hamburger customers in downtown Brownsville, McDonald's closes the location.

Just badgering Harvey Patrick is not solving much. In my humble opinion, the Taylorcraft community need to get divorced.

You're not just divorcing the dishonest girl you married (at gunpoint), you're divorcing the whole family, including smelly old toothless Uncle Bubba, the cross-eyed twins with the still in their yard, the leather-faced old lady sewing their clothes together in the back room, and Billy Bob out back on the tractor too.

That's the only way to get the smell out of your clothes.

If you get Uncle Bubba to apologize for the one you married, give you the deed to the cabin by the lake, and then he makes you marry his cousin Wanda who owns the chicken farm down by the creek, you still are going to be dealing with the same family, and have the same problems.

If everybody stops stops buying stuff from them, stops listening to them, and then notifies the FAA that the actual people responsible for operating Taylorcrafts in the real world of air safety have basically stopped dealing with them, it will soon become very difficult and credibilty-costly for the FAA to stand on their side of the line.

In the beginning, the FAA will issue some canned cardboard statement like "The FAA recognizes Taylorcraft, LLC as the owner of the TC and that's that" trying to make everyone go away. However, the FAA is far more worried about their credibility and what people think of them more than they are about Heckle and Jeckle down in Brownsville.

To the FAA's credit, there is a history of the FAA at times rightfully reversing their initial position where large groups of operators, mechanics, etc. have made a valid point backed up by a large number of voices. There was reportedly a showdown in Alaska where the mechanics and operators protested an FAA ruling by some REMF, and the mechanics made it known there would be hell to pay if they didn't leave things as they were. The Piper Cherokee people got their AD rescinded. The Piper strut issue was resolved with a more fair solution. The airlines have successfully lobbied for a lot of things.

This is a lobbying issue with the FAA, IMHO. This is a consumer issue with Taylorcraft, I'm 100% sure. The key is having everyone agree to vote with their wallets, and "shun" the organization so long as it is involved with the people who are currently involved.

[M Towsley]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Bill,

The premise is good, however, there is such a small segment of Taylorcraft owners out there who subscribe to this forum. I think anyone on this forum needs to inform other Taylorcraft owners of this issue and invite them to join this wonderfully informative group of people. At least inform them of the problems, especially if those folks are not computer friendly. If I was a new Taylorcraft owner, (I was at one time), and did not know about this venue I would have happily done business with Taylorcraft LLC. But, if someone, perhaps the last owner of my aircraft, had informed me of the issues I would have been better informed, etc. So, going along with what you are saying everyone needs to make a concerted effort to inform those Taylorcrafters who are not 'informed'. Perhaps then a dent can be made in the factory's wallet.

[DanBrown]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Bill,

The premise is good, however, there is such a small segment of Taylorcraft owners out there who subscribe to this forum. .....

The FAA n-number database has the names and address of the current registered Taylorcraft owners. I'd be happy to download the latest version and extract a set of mailing lables from it. How about a one page petition and explanation to all the owners asking it to be signed and returned to the Foundation. A relatively small investment in paper, and stamps with a get together for label stuffing and mailing -- then another one in a few weeks to collect and reproduce books of petitions to send to the appropriate sources that Bill and others have mentioned.

If the tribe thinks it is worth trying, I'm in.

[jstall]

Re: Harry's STILL at the factory

Bill,

The premise is good, however, there is such a small segment of Taylorcraft owners out there who subscribe to this forum. I think anyone on this forum needs to inform other Taylorcraft owners of this issue and invite them to join this wonderfully informative group of people. At least inform them of the problems, especially if those folks are not computer friendly. If I was a new Taylorcraft owner, (I was at one time), and did not know about this venue I would have happily done business with Taylorcraft LLC. But, if someone, perhaps the last owner of my aircraft, had informed me of the issues I would have been better informed, etc. So, going along with what you are saying everyone needs to make a concerted effort to inform those Taylorcrafters who are not 'informed'. Perhaps then a dent can be made in the factory's wallet.

I think that information to all owners is very good idea, and Dan's offer to set up the data base and labels very good also. How would we help to get the postage and other stuff paid for? dunno? I would sure chip in though.
"EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE INFORMED ABOUT HARRY AND D&E"

JS