Is Harry in jail YET??

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Gentlemen also do not take money for parts and not ship them. Gentlemen do not remove parts from one person's airplane and sell them to someone else.

Mike you may keep your sensibilities with our collective compliments, and among others I will be more than glad to wear the big black hat in this public forum.

I know I'm a gentleman because I just came out of a door that said so !

Bill,

I perfaced my comments in a public forum. Privately I can be much more specific regarding Harry's ancestory.

Regarding the law. I am no lawyer. A little bit of college and several years of having to deal with them in the course of my employment has made me just smart enough to be dangerous. However, Marty is correct. Civil actions are easier to prove because the threshold of proof is much lower than in criminal cases. But in the end if you win, I'm afraid that you will be squeezing blood from a turnip.

In a crimal action, it is the domain of the District Attorney. He is not likely to go after him unless he is sure he has a case. He is not likely to waste the resourses of his department for your emotional satisfaction. He wants a conviction rate he can point to when he runs for mayor. So, like Marty says criminal intent enters the picture. However, for you guys who sent your airplanes down to him with all the pieces attached and found them later with a lot fewer pieces on them, there certainly is an angle to consider for criminal intent. His defense would be gross stupidity. I think I could take that case to a jury.

Mike Sellers
Univair Aircraft

[M Towsley]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Bill,

Good morning. Though I am not up on the interstate trafficking of stolen struts the main thing is having to prove this occurred. The burden of proof lays with the accuser, not the accused. I do agree that a civil case is much easier to prove than a criminal one. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that whomever took one persons struts and sold them to another did so with the intent to permanently deprive the original person of their property. Now comes, how do you prove this beyond a reasonable doubt? Are the struts serial numbered, of course not. So you would have to have some type of evidence, witness, video, confession. Perhaps a former worker who is upset with his former employer would want to come forward to testify for all of these folks.???

Now the civil process......this is what got O.J. You only have to prove 51% that whatever you claim happened, did happen. Much easier to prove, not as much evidence needed. One just has to convince a judge the one percent over 50/50 that the event occurred.

Though I feel badly for folks who sent money and did not receive anything, I do know Harry did not have a great reputation on this website LONG before the strut issue came up. I think I even contributed some of those comments, perhaps. A little research prior to sending money would have saved a lot of heartache. I have attempted to give a little advise to those who were taken advantage of, with little luck. All I feel is a lot of anger and resentment. I'm used to it in the job I am in. I believe a lot of it is the fact they feel they were taken, (they were), and it is their own fault. Take responsibility for what you did and either stand up, sue this guy or get criminal charges filed against him or quit whining. I will take a lot of heat over this, but either do something personally about it or don't. I know if I had sent money to someone who did not come through I would TAKE ACTION. Some have, hence the civil case cited earlier in this post. Again, best of luck to those who are victims. What happened in Brownsville is wrong, probably criminally wrong, but difficult to prove. Civilly, he is absolutely responsible for what he did. If he is proved responsible and is still associated with the company than perhaps the company can be held accountable. One can only hope.

[Buell Powell]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Bill,
I wouldn't know about this either, but instead of going to jail wouldn't they have the option of refunding the money instead if the person that had paid for the struts agreed?
Seems like that would be a good option for both partys. If it were me I wouldn't be interested in if they went to jail or not if they would make good on the debt. The best option for everyone including the factory owners would be for them to put an end to this--avoid the lawsuits, send the struts- or better yet give an option of refunding the money for those that have already had thier old ones tested after waiting so long for the factory to ship,or would rather buy from another source,make an ernest effort to help those that are still trying to put planes back together that had been disassembled at the factory and picked up with parts missing and destroyed with supplying parts and refund the large payments made to have them repaired Refund the large down payments for new planes, reverse the past factory way of doing business and deliver parts or not accept money, and if they keep that factory-convince us they will never use the tired old trick (which has proven to be nothing but a way to alienate the customer base completly)of writing a Service Bulliton in such a way and for the purpose of generating profits. If they can and will do this then they may have a chance of getting our support again. The days of scamming for a fast buck are over--either its sell the factory or make into an honest company with the Flying community's interest at heart and make into a real- lasting aircraft factory--which is what everyone wants. Hope they are reading the post on the forum and this is what they decide to do--if not--they are missing an opportunity to re-gain a very valuable customer base and a lot of problems from some very frustrated and determined past customers.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Screw Harry... Is HARVEY in jail YET??

This is way out of my expertise also so this is a question. If someone paid for parts ---assembled or not---that were never shipped then those parts belong to the the person that bought them and are not part the inventory that can be repossessed. Then with proof of purchase cant they claim those parts as thier property?

You guys are on to something, seriously and all kidding aside. If all the parties who paid for struts and never got them... showed up at the factory with their paid receipts and a Marshal or something... they may have a chance.

Actually if they go to Small Claims and get a judgment for only their parts (a slam dunk), then they can legally show up at the factory and claim the parts. If Harry or Harvey or Houdini says "sorry, we sold those struts", then they can be taken away in handcuffs because they violated a judge's order.

I know there's a lawyer or two in this group... am I on the right track with this? Can this be done in small claims as individuals but with one attorney representing everyone due to "across state lines" when the parties cannot travel to represent themselves?

Bill

[Buell Powell]

Re: Screw Harry... Is HARVEY in jail YET??

This is way out of my expertise also so this is a question. If someone paid for parts ---assembled or not---that were never shipped then those parts belong to the the person that bought them and are not part the inventory that can be repossessed. Then with proof of purchase cant they claim those parts as thier property?

[flyguy]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

This is way out of my area of expertise, but Bill's mention of stolen parts made me think. If one takes over a company that has not filed bankruptcy are they not taking over the commitments of the previous owner? When you take over a company you get everything, not just the good parts, right? All the mess left over is yours to clear up. I wonder if someone thinks it is different in the airplane business.
Darryl

[VictorBravo]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

I've held my tounge on this because "gentlemen" do not speak ill of others in the business. Certainaly not in a public forum.

Gentlemen also do not take money for parts and not ship them. Gentlemen do not remove parts from one person's airplane and sell them to someone else.

Mike you may keep your sensibilities with our collective compliments, and among others I will be more than glad to wear the big black hat in this public forum.

I know I'm a gentleman because I just came out of a door that said so !

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

I've held my tounge on this because "gentlemen" do not speak ill of others in the business. Certainaly not in a public forum. I have maintained that discipline for 30 years. I will try here as well. However, has anybody contacted the District Attorney's Office in Brownsville to see if they have anything to say about Harry's business practices?

Mike Sellers
Univair Aircraft

[VictorBravo]

Screw Harry... Is HARVEY in jail YET??

let the 14 sets of struts set on the shelf, who wants to fly a stolen part.

Hey David... I think you got something there... selling stolen property! customer X pays for the parts, the company publicly announces they are manufacturing the parts, so the customer owns the parts. The parts are never shipped, so someone must have stolen the parts, but then the same factory offers the same parts to new customers!

And across state lines using credit card money !

Harry the Fraud... meet Harvey the Fence !

[David Robbs]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Yes it is good advice to have your struts looked at first. I made the trip to St. Louis last Monday the struts passed 150.00 best money spent yet . treated them with linseed oil per AD. I now have a flying taylorcraft. As for the Taylorcraft Factory if I could flag the site like you can on craiglist I would. NO one should buy from them or any one associated with them. let the 14 sets of struts set on the shelf, who wants to fly a stolen part.

[CraigH]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Oh for goodness' sakes, he looks just like Bill Clinton. I was wondering where he got his business ethics education from. Puzzle solved!

:goodpost:

Unfortunately, he's let a lot of unsuspecting Tcraft customers serve as his "Monica".

[VictorBravo]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

http://tcraft.info/lagra04.jpg

Oh for goodness' sakes, he looks just like Bill Clinton. I was wondering where he got his business ethics education from. Puzzle solved!

[VictorBravo]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

I'm very sorry to put this so bluntly and simply...

When the cops arrest a bunch of illegal aliens hiding in a basement someplace, they also arrest the owner of the house who allowed them to hide in the basement. They broke the law by facilitating, supporting, or encouraging the illegal aliens and giving them a place to hide. The owner of the house cannot go into court and say "Judge, your problem is with those people, and I will not take responsibility for what they did!". the Judge says "Correct, I'm throwing YOUR raggedy ass in jail because you enabled those other folks to break the law, which is a separate but equally punishable crime"

When the Feds bust a crack house, they take the owner of the house away along with the people making the crack, because the owner of the house gave the dealers the infrastructure to do it. The owner of the house cannot go into court and say "Judge, throw THEM in jail but not me, because I do not take responsibility for what they did!" The Juidge says "Sorry, you're going to jail because you provided these bozos with a place and infrastructure to break the law, and then sat there smiling while they made and sold crack!"

When Ford Motor Co. owns a subsidiary like Kia Motors of Korea, they don't get to separate themselves from any of Kia's liabilities or their bad reputation for making crappy cars. The Judge says " Sorry Ford, you owned Kia, you allowed them to build crappy cars while you owned them, so the Clapsaddle family gets to sue you for killing their Great Uncle Clyde because the Kia's brakes were faulty... and YOU knew it, and YOU sat there and said "we're not responsible for Kia's bad brakes" and then you had the gall to try and sell the Clapsaddle heirs a brand new Ford built with the same friggin' faulty brakes !"

As enjoyable as it would be for me to dream up another few examples, the principle is clear. We were all waiting for Harvey Patrick and company to show their colors, some of us even outright asked "Friend or Foe?" on this forum, and their response spoke volumes.

Once again, I have to advise anyone reading this that anybody who is considering doing business with the Taylorcraft organization should think twice and research this forum in detail.

If you are considering buying struts for your Taylorcraft,
1) Perform the X-Ray testing FIRST, you have a good chance of finding that your struts are completely safe.
2) If your struts are not safe, consider having a qualified shop repair them if possible, saving you thousands of dollars.
3) If the struts do need to be replaced, there are at least three reputable companies manufacturing wing struts who have a far higher level of honesty, credibility, PMA manufacturing experience, and engineering ability than the Ingram/Patrick/D&E entity that currently holds the Taylorcraft type certificate.

Unless you are comfortable buying "genuine Rolex watches" from a guy on the street who has them inside his overcoat, or you are happy buying land in Florida from a salesman over the phone, then in my educated opinion you should not be comfortable sending any money to Taylorcraft until there is yet another regime change... a change that involves names other than those currently operating the business.

I'm sorry to bash these people, I had higher hopes, but they have done this themselves.

[CraigH]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Does anyone have a photo of Harry Ingram? I would like to volunteer to create a Wikipedia article, on this important historical figure in in the American business world.

http://tcraft.info/lagra04.jpg

This interesting bit of info (lawsuit to the tune of $43,000) turned up during my search: http://www.gwdservices.com/taylorcraft/

[jstall]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Bill

So that info in the Wilkipedia article isn't right? How much if anything there is? I'd like to know as Buell also what the real history is, Some of that probably is in Chets Book, but not all and recent changes conserning Patricks and Harry, thats the part I'm most interested in.

That part about them backing Harry 100% is very interesting, in that if this is the case, then it would be obvious to me that Mr Patrick or his helpers would have kept a very close eye on Harry, and thence what has transpired
in recent months would have been no surprise at all. That then makes them a part of it in my simple but frustrated mind set

JS