Is Harry in jail YET??

[VictorBravo]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

I've held my tounge on this because "gentlemen" do not speak ill of others in the business. Certainaly not in a public forum.

Gentlemen also do not take money for parts and not ship them. Gentlemen do not remove parts from one person's airplane and sell them to someone else.

Mike you may keep your sensibilities with our collective compliments, and among others I will be more than glad to wear the big black hat in this public forum.

I know I'm a gentleman because I just came out of a door that said so !

[flyguy]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

This is way out of my area of expertise, but Bill's mention of stolen parts made me think. If one takes over a company that has not filed bankruptcy are they not taking over the commitments of the previous owner? When you take over a company you get everything, not just the good parts, right? All the mess left over is yours to clear up. I wonder if someone thinks it is different in the airplane business.
Darryl

[Buell Powell]

Re: Screw Harry... Is HARVEY in jail YET??

This is way out of my expertise also so this is a question. If someone paid for parts ---assembled or not---that were never shipped then those parts belong to the the person that bought them and are not part the inventory that can be repossessed. Then with proof of purchase cant they claim those parts as thier property?

[VictorBravo]

Re: Screw Harry... Is HARVEY in jail YET??

This is way out of my expertise also so this is a question. If someone paid for parts ---assembled or not---that were never shipped then those parts belong to the the person that bought them and are not part the inventory that can be repossessed. Then with proof of purchase cant they claim those parts as thier property?

You guys are on to something, seriously and all kidding aside. If all the parties who paid for struts and never got them... showed up at the factory with their paid receipts and a Marshal or something... they may have a chance.

Actually if they go to Small Claims and get a judgment for only their parts (a slam dunk), then they can legally show up at the factory and claim the parts. If Harry or Harvey or Houdini says "sorry, we sold those struts", then they can be taken away in handcuffs because they violated a judge's order.

I know there's a lawyer or two in this group... am I on the right track with this? Can this be done in small claims as individuals but with one attorney representing everyone due to "across state lines" when the parties cannot travel to represent themselves?

Bill

[Buell Powell]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Bill,
I wouldn't know about this either, but instead of going to jail wouldn't they have the option of refunding the money instead if the person that had paid for the struts agreed?
Seems like that would be a good option for both partys. If it were me I wouldn't be interested in if they went to jail or not if they would make good on the debt. The best option for everyone including the factory owners would be for them to put an end to this--avoid the lawsuits, send the struts- or better yet give an option of refunding the money for those that have already had thier old ones tested after waiting so long for the factory to ship,or would rather buy from another source,make an ernest effort to help those that are still trying to put planes back together that had been disassembled at the factory and picked up with parts missing and destroyed with supplying parts and refund the large payments made to have them repaired Refund the large down payments for new planes, reverse the past factory way of doing business and deliver parts or not accept money, and if they keep that factory-convince us they will never use the tired old trick (which has proven to be nothing but a way to alienate the customer base completly)of writing a Service Bulliton in such a way and for the purpose of generating profits. If they can and will do this then they may have a chance of getting our support again. The days of scamming for a fast buck are over--either its sell the factory or make into an honest company with the Flying community's interest at heart and make into a real- lasting aircraft factory--which is what everyone wants. Hope they are reading the post on the forum and this is what they decide to do--if not--they are missing an opportunity to re-gain a very valuable customer base and a lot of problems from some very frustrated and determined past customers.

[M Towsley]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Bill,

Good morning. Though I am not up on the interstate trafficking of stolen struts the main thing is having to prove this occurred. The burden of proof lays with the accuser, not the accused. I do agree that a civil case is much easier to prove than a criminal one. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that whomever took one persons struts and sold them to another did so with the intent to permanently deprive the original person of their property. Now comes, how do you prove this beyond a reasonable doubt? Are the struts serial numbered, of course not. So you would have to have some type of evidence, witness, video, confession. Perhaps a former worker who is upset with his former employer would want to come forward to testify for all of these folks.???

Now the civil process......this is what got O.J. You only have to prove 51% that whatever you claim happened, did happen. Much easier to prove, not as much evidence needed. One just has to convince a judge the one percent over 50/50 that the event occurred.

Though I feel badly for folks who sent money and did not receive anything, I do know Harry did not have a great reputation on this website LONG before the strut issue came up. I think I even contributed some of those comments, perhaps. A little research prior to sending money would have saved a lot of heartache. I have attempted to give a little advise to those who were taken advantage of, with little luck. All I feel is a lot of anger and resentment. I'm used to it in the job I am in. I believe a lot of it is the fact they feel they were taken, (they were), and it is their own fault. Take responsibility for what you did and either stand up, sue this guy or get criminal charges filed against him or quit whining. I will take a lot of heat over this, but either do something personally about it or don't. I know if I had sent money to someone who did not come through I would TAKE ACTION. Some have, hence the civil case cited earlier in this post. Again, best of luck to those who are victims. What happened in Brownsville is wrong, probably criminally wrong, but difficult to prove. Civilly, he is absolutely responsible for what he did. If he is proved responsible and is still associated with the company than perhaps the company can be held accountable. One can only hope.

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Gentlemen also do not take money for parts and not ship them. Gentlemen do not remove parts from one person's airplane and sell them to someone else.

Mike you may keep your sensibilities with our collective compliments, and among others I will be more than glad to wear the big black hat in this public forum.

I know I'm a gentleman because I just came out of a door that said so !

Bill,

I perfaced my comments in a public forum. Privately I can be much more specific regarding Harry's ancestory.

Regarding the law. I am no lawyer. A little bit of college and several years of having to deal with them in the course of my employment has made me just smart enough to be dangerous. However, Marty is correct. Civil actions are easier to prove because the threshold of proof is much lower than in criminal cases. But in the end if you win, I'm afraid that you will be squeezing blood from a turnip.

In a crimal action, it is the domain of the District Attorney. He is not likely to go after him unless he is sure he has a case. He is not likely to waste the resourses of his department for your emotional satisfaction. He wants a conviction rate he can point to when he runs for mayor. So, like Marty says criminal intent enters the picture. However, for you guys who sent your airplanes down to him with all the pieces attached and found them later with a lot fewer pieces on them, there certainly is an angle to consider for criminal intent. His defense would be gross stupidity. I think I could take that case to a jury.

Mike Sellers
Univair Aircraft

[flyguy]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

I wonder how many of those parts were used to build the factory "prototype."

To continue my previous line of thought: Personally I would think one would want to forget Harry, and concentrate on the company. It is not for nothing that companies are incorporated. LLC is just a more simple version of Inc., right? Again I don't think that a company can come in and take over a business and consider themselves isolated from previous commitments of legal representatives of the original organization. If they haven't taken some legal steps to isolate themselves, then they are the same company, regardless of who the officers are. Like the man says, go after them. Small claims sounds efficient. Doing it as a group with one legal representative may work. Use the part of the system that works. Organize a list of everyone who lost money and pull together.
DC

[jstall]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Yes Mike

I contacted the D.A.'s Office Cameron Co Texas, no joy, next the Cameron Co Sheriffs office to see if someone could go out and see if the place was operating, "no joy" I contacted the Attorney Generals Office State of Texas, did get a reply but "no joy" nothing. then went to Jim Inholf, and he went into the FAA, he got a 4 page letter, that outllined me as a jerk. again "no joy" so, attempts have been made, system doesn't work

JS

[flyguy]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Of course, everyone you mention above is a politician and has nothing to gain by helping you with your problem, just as Marty said.

I suspect that even that "Motor Co." that is going after HARRY is making a mistake. LLC, that is likely to isolate him. Not an expert on that. But I think that the guys who took over may have screwed up, I don't know.

Oh, and being a trusting person and exhibiting some bad business judgement doesn't make anyone a jerk, regardless of what the FAA says.
DC

[jstall]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Well the work or term "JERK" wasn't actually used, but if one would read the response that the FAA gave to Senator Inholf, it sure portrayed me as kinda a loosed ended person, that wasn't very cooperative with the FAA, and was very hard to work with. Just the typical GOVERNEMENT bureauacy covering itself, business as usual.

This deal has been expensive, exhausting, and just bad all the way, and yes, to a degree it's my own fault, cause I was aware to a degree as to the reputation of Harry and Taylorcraft, but when I placed the order?? well he
just smoothed me I guess, amazing, guess I'm not the only one either. I could be the only one that actually lost personal cash. Most of the others were credit card deals inwhich the card companies lost, I'm surprised they haven't done something

JS

[DanBrown]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Last night I had a brief talk with a retired FAA person about Harry and the strut AD (she was glad to be out as she felt the agency is corrupt). She felt that our saga should go to the people investigating the FAA. Also to the AOPA for help in doing something about Harry and bunch. So it seems that a historical fact sheet with a request for investigation should go to:
FAA Flight Safety
Inspector General
Congressional Aviation Committees
AOPA
EAA
Media (especially the investigative reporters)

[jstall]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

Dan

That is interesting information, and I'm not surprised at all either. In fact
I've got a connection back on the East coast that is a retired FAA guy that is now a DMI, that looked into Taylorcraft for me, and turned up some real interesting info, that he or "HIS SOURCE" who of which was still in the administration, got for him thru the FAA data bases and computers. The comment was "WELL LETS PUT IT THIS WAY? IT KINDA STINKS" SOMETHING WRONG, that is what was said about the inspections that are to be done down there. At that time there was no record that Taylorcraft had passed or had been inspected in accordance with the law and rules for that facility. I asked the inspector in charge of Taylorcraft at the time and he denied that, and said it had been, either way, there was no record, and according to my source that isn't the way its done. That was all the comment I could get, and couldn't get the sources name, I do have the DMI's name but must withhold it, seems that everyone is afraid of the FAA
kinda like its some Gestapo type of organization. Upsetting for a taxpayer to think that Government Administrations/agencies can treat the public like this and get a way with it, but from what I've seen lately that is exactly what happens, they don't appear to be accountable to the public, only large special interest groups with large lobby power in Washington.

I'll give so thought to this, I've got about 30 pages of assembled info, and data, reflecting my experience with this, so it wouldn't take to long to get that together for about the 8th time now, and forward that to them. However it would be nice to have a "GROUP OF US DO IT" and not just a standalone individual, that has been making waves now for almost 8 months.
Most of those MIDO's that have heard from me would write it off kinda like they did with my Senator.

JS

[M Towsley]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

JS,

Along the lines of the credit card issue, most companies won't touch a loss until it is in the range of $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 loss for each INDIVIDUAL transaction. Most banks are the same way. They just pass the cost onto you and me. Apparently it is not worth their time and effort. I know this to be the truth, again, through experience. Though not through my loss, just investigating others' losses.

[NY86]

Re: Is Harry in jail YET??

...If one takes over a company that has not filed bankruptcy are they not taking over the commitments of the previous owner?

Indeed!

You cannot reposses an entire company, only those assets you have a legitimate lean on. Obviously, no new struts and no customer deposits fall into that category. The only other option is to force the company into bankrupcy then take your chances with the judge. As such all those who paid in advance would be in the creditor pool along with the guys who (think they) now have all the assets...

On the other hand, if Harry was just managing the operation for them, then they can roll in and take over lock stock and barrel... and obligations...

'Course, I'm not an expert either...

What amazes me is those of you who have been burned have not gone down there with a bunch of guys named Guido and straightened things out...