Der

[astjp2]

Well I talked with the FAA last Friday, I am going up this week to Apply for my DER, I figure its the only way to get my paperwork approved. I think that I am going to try and stick with T-crafts and cub type aircraft, apprenticeship is about a year....any thought would be appreciated. Tim

[VictorBravo]

Re: Der

Well I talked with the FAA last Friday, I am going up this week to Apply for my DER, I figure its the only way to get my paperwork approved. I think that I am going to try and stick with T-crafts and cub type aircraft, apprenticeship is about a year....any thought would be appreciated. Tim

I support this completely ! Having someone who is already a part of our community become a DER is fantastic.

Bill

[barnstmr]

Re: Der

Hi Tim,
Best wishes for you toward getting your ticket. I will be glad to offer my assistance if I can. Which region are you working with? What area of specialty are you going for? In the mean time, if you have any needs for DER approval, I would be glad to look at your info. I try to keep reasonable rates or may consider horse-trading for parts etc. PM me if you want to talk about my experiences in getting and functioning as a DER.
Regards,

[astjp2]

Re: Der

I am looking at airframe structural but I am open, Its with the Fairbanks Region, I am also thinking of applying for a few STC's, which would make life easier for everybody. Its only time and money....Thanks for the offer, we will see what happens when I have my meeting on friday. Tim

[barnstmr]

Re: Der

Tim,
I should add this. Not to discourage you, but I should advise you to be prepared for frustrating work. It has been my career-long quest to give input as a DER so that I could lend useful support for aging aircraft issues that I believe many in the FAA do not understand. I recognized as a young boy tagging along with my dad through restorations of several antique airplanes that the FAA old-timers who know these old airplanes are becoming fewer and fewer. In my time as a DER, I have been able to further the small airplane cause somewhat, although it is tough because there is a great demand and more money for DERs in big airplanes. You end up working where there are means to keep food on the table.... usually not in small airplanes.

As a DER you will subject yourself to much chagrin as you become an FAA representative. It means you must uphold all of the bureaucracy that years of declining FAA expertise has had to build in to the "system" in hopes of furthering aviation safety. It is interesting to me that so much technical experience has been replaced by a never-ending list of do's and don'ts and somehow the system maintains safety. Almost gone are the days that you can deal with an FAA man who has basic aeronautical common sense and is not afraid to sign his name based on it.

In fact.. if you try to bring common sense into the system as it exists now, you find that it has almost been legislated out by FAA orders and policies. FAA order 8130.10 is a prime example... which is the document that has stripped FSDO of the ability to issue field approvals for many things that previously were allowed. Even though they grant you as a DER a certain level of authority, there are many ways they still retain final say. If the FAA would allow DERs to use the full authority of their delegation, life would be much simpler for aircraft owners. FSDO with the assistance of experienced DERs should be allowed the field approval option. This is my biggest beef with the current system. I believe that the FAA is so lacking of technical expertise that they do not even recognize how some folks can be skilled in certain areas. Many who are in FAA positions of authority do not have a clear sense of how industry works or even how the FAA system is utilized by industry.

So, in order to stay sane in this mess of bureaucracy, we almost have to be thick skinned about it. Sometimes patience and fortitude are tested to limits as a DER. I applaud you and anyone who is willing to jump into this arena, especially with the goal in mind to support small GA aging airplanes. Good luck and best wishes.

[astjp2]

Re: Der

Well I work a normal job, this will be used to fill up my free time, maybe I can help someone get something approved that may otherwise not be. Tim

[Guest]

Re: Der

So what is like to get the DER?

I have thought about it.

I wondered about the liability? How does that work?

Do you actually make any money with a DER authorization?

I got my PE license sometime ago.

I studied and worked problems every night for 4 months, I am anal and tend to over do, I got a 95 score on it.

Is the DER test that bad?

I have a BSE (Mech & Aerospace) and an MSEE, odd combo I know.

Been working electronics for 20 years, more $$.

I have been interested and also apprehensive. Will I stand a chance?

Advice will be appreciated.

Dave

[astjp2]

Re: Der

Contact your FSDO or the ACO, they can fill you in. And yes you can make money....Tim

[whake]

Re: Der

DRUDE with your education you should be running a company, companies are begging for hands on people who can make dicisions. You can do anything you WANT to do. Walt

[tawadc95]

Re: Der

Terry,
Most in govt are as you say of the faa and all the way down to the city and county levels as I am sure you know.
They are told by their profs at graduation they know, alot so arrogance becomes ingrained early and is supplimented by the taxpayers inability to shoot them when they walk on our property.
I think what they are good at is " looking up answers " in books of regulations that a higher authority has implemented for the scenario they face at the moment.
They have mistaken the ability to research an answer in govt regulations for actual knowledge,two very seperate skills.
Therefore when we present our work or ideas to them they have no clue what we are up to and no knowledge, much less motivation to find out,so they resort to the only answer they know...what someone has written in legalise..."you can't do that because we don't want to take the time to understand it."
The great Ronald Reagan said it well when he said" The scariest thing on earth to hear is ,I am from the govt. and I am hear to help you."
I like another line from him that said govt is alot like a baby.....a mouth to eat whenever it wants but no common sense to control the other end.
Not intended as a lecture as I know you all already feel this way,just needed to vent as my line of work has them at every turn too.

[barnstmr]

Re: Der

I am 42 yrs old and up to now have remained optimistic and still hold out hope and drive that I can overcome all of the negatives with patience, diligence, and common sense. God has blessed me with a fruitful engineering career, mostly in the aircraft certification world. He has provided me with a wonderful day job as the engineering department chief and company DER for RAM Aircraft. And He has brought me an abundence of consulting work on the side. I also have several ongoing Taylorcraft certification projects, one for which there are several waiting for me to finish (L2 STC for C85 & O-200). God provides and I tend to take on WAY too much. Most DERs I know are the same way. I make a comfortable living to support my wife and 6 kids. At times, I am spread way too thin in the jobs I take on. But I am of the type that wouldn't like it any other way. As a DER there is a lot of work out there. I STAY MOTIVATED for it all as long as I get the chance to spend a few quality hours a month flying the Tcraft.

[barnstmr]

Re: Der

DAVE
Having a PE in the aircraft certification industry doesn't gain you much. It does help showing that you can meet the technical requirements. As with everything else with the FAA, getting and retaining your DER ticket has become more and more involved over the years.

Getting a DER ticket is not like the PE test. The test is open book, requiring you to know where to look up regulatory information. The actual delegation process consists more of developing a working relationship with FAA ACO office - over time - enough to gain their confidence in your abilities, knowledge, credibility, and impartiality. It helps to know several ACO engineers and establish yourself with them. They used to say it was a "good-ol boy" system. Ultimately, the Delegation process comes from developing a productive and cooperative relationship with the FAA. And they have to see it as filling a need. (In other words... they look to DERs to help them in the overall certification work activities.) So it is good if you can demonstrate that you can improve their office efficiency somehow.

There are basic requirements (4 yr degree in engineering + 4 yrs of progressive aviation related engineering/certification experience) - (or 8 yrs experience without a degree).

There are interface requirements (at least one year working with the FAA office you are asking to delegate you).

There are technical requirements (proof of having been involved in certification projects with examples of writing test plans, test reports, certification plans, technical analysis reports, conformity requirements, etc.)

Look up on the FAA website for the FAA Order 8110.37D. This large document (along with FAA Order 8100.8) contains all of the requirements for getting your DER ticket. Its quite an ordeal and usually only approached from a career standpoint.

[O.Taylor]

Re: Der

It's like when I found a C-310 with a smoke system installed (as in airshow work), I filled out a 337 and sent it to my PMI, he called me, said he was sending it to the MIDO, OK, next call comes, the voice says, why do you want to put in a smoke detecting system with no fire ext. system, I said NO, it is a smoke generating system. He is baffled, why would anyone want to do that????, Have you ever been to an airshow. NO. I can see this is going to be uphill from here on, it took several faxes and phone calls, but it was finally approved, Oh how I love working with the FAA and root canals. O.T.

[barnstmr]

Re: Der

HAHAHAHHHAAAAAA thats typical.

See how many ACO engineers know what a Taylorcraft looks like. I once got an AMOC for a Taylorcraft on the fuel shut off AD.. long story. But the ACO engineer I worked with was named RAO EDUPUGANTI. He's a really nice guy... and very adept in the aerospace world... but he had NO IDEA what we were looking at... he deferred to FSDO to get help in knowing if what I had submitted was appropriate or not.