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High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

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  • High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

    I've been fighting a problem that is still baffling me, and I hope others have had / solved this issue. I throw myself at the mercy of the group to save me from the inferno!

    The Airplane:

    At present (all previous cowl/baffle history notwithstanding and no longer applicable)...

    I have a stock 1940 closed nose cowl. I HAD a stock lower cowl with the very small lip. When the problems started I added a 3" wide hinged movable lip on the back of the stock bottom cowl (Po' Boy cowl flap), with a push-pull cable in the cockpit.

    I have a properly sealed, well repaired, refurbished and pretty darn good set of stock Taylorcraft cooling baffles.

    The seals against the cowl are way better than most.

    The Reynolds Aviation STC has been installed (crumpled aluminum foil to fill large gaps in the baffling against the engine). There are no enormous holes.

    The hoses on the intake tubes from the carb spider to the cylinders are average. Small cracks, no huge holes. I reinstalled them with a little Lubriplate grease, so they should be reasonably well sealed.

    The engine runs just like a little A-65 should, all things considered. None of the spark plugs are white-hot or burned out. It makes plenty of power and runs smoothly.

    The mag timing was recently set to the correct value. It is not advanced.

    I installed a four probe Westach CHT, brand new and TSO'd, with a four position selector switch. The leads are spark-plug-washer type, not bayonet.

    I boiled the one suspect CHT probe in water... after installation on the airplane... and read 210F on the gauge.

    I installed thermax brand color change thermometer "dots" at six places on the cylinder head to verify the surface temps.

    I even built a little fairing around the exhaust pipe to prevent high pressure air from coming in the cowl from below and opposing the cooling flow. This fairing would actually try to pull air out of the cowl, helping the flow.

    The Problem:

    On a full power takeoff, the #1 cylinder CHT climbs immediately to 450F by the time I am downwind abeam of the tower (less than a minute after starting the takeoff. CHT before takeoff (after taxi and runup) is 300F to 325F.

    The other day I was having some spark plug problems and did a long runup, two or three times longer than normal. On takeoff, the CHT on #1 cyl. jumped to 475F by the departure end of the runway. I had to reduce power and limp around the pattern at 500 feet and land. The CHT came down normally on final.

    The OTHER three cylinders run 40 to 60 degrees cooler across the board.

    The stick on temperature dots reveal that the hottest part of the cylinder (between the lower spark plug and the exhaust valve) turns the color of a 435F dot black, meaning that the surface temp. at that location gets above 435. The other temperature dots at other locations show varying cooler temps as would be expected. The intake side fins do not get up to 340F to turn the color of the lowest temperature dot.

    The Po' Boy cowl flap does not help more than a few degrees. It is marginally effective under all conditions, almost not enough to read on the gauge.

    OIL temperatures are normal. On takeoff they run 140 to 170F depending on OAT. After a 10 or 15 minute climb at 75 or 80% throttle the oil temp will come up to 200 or 205F... I am fairly happy with the oil temps.

    The Brain Twister:

    On a new design airplane, I would just assume the cowling inlet and outlet areas are out of whack. I'd assume it was a poor design and just saw/poke/bend/twist the cowling until I got more airflow OUT of the cowl and more air through the number 1 cylinder. But Taylorcrafts have been flying for a while on this same cowl design. I also don't want to hack up a cowling unless it is needed. Under any other circumstance I would put louvers or a reverse scoop in the cowl near the hot cylinder and pull more air out where it was needed. But I haven't seen or heard of anyone else having the same problem as I'm having.

    Has anyone else had this problem with one cylinder running REALLY hot? I know that the book says an A-65 cylinder redlines at 525F. I have pulled the plug LONG before it ever got that hot. That's just too damn hot no matter what the book says.

    So... anyone here have relevant experience with CHT's and hot-running T-crafts that might reveal the cause of this problem? Several people said that an intake tube leak would make one cylinder run hot... but the spark plug is the same color as the others.
    Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

    Bill Berle
    TF#693

    http://www.ezflaphandle.com
    http://www.grantstar.net
    N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
    N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
    N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
    N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

  • #2
    Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

    Assuming the #1 is in the front (I don't remember for sure) I could put a TC on it and see what I get. I only have them on my back cylinders just now, but I don't think it would be a problem as I have more 'couples.
    Probably won't be able to fly today as we have 15 kts across the runway just now. Could put one on though for later.
    I had assumed (bad move LOL) that the back ones were the hottest, but never checked.
    D.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

      Originally posted by VictorBravo View Post

      The hoses on the intake tubes from the carb spider to the cylinders are average. Small cracks, no huge holes. I reinstalled them with a little Lubriplate grease, so they should be reasonably well sealed.
      VB,

      Sounds like an induction leak.... Have you checked the gasket between the intake elbow and cylinder?

      Jim

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

        Similar problem with a TriPacer back in the 60's. The problem progressed to the point that the plane had to make emergency landings 3 times. The cause was a gradually expanding crack on the inside of the intake spider. On the tripacer, as the engine got hot the cracked opened more.

        Ronc
        N96995
        Ron C
        N96995

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

          Bill,

          An over-lean mixtue will cause heating but not necessarily show up at low power. The induction leak theory is a good bet, but since you say the rubber is in decent condition the spider or spider gasket could be a culprit. The engine will backfire when this problem gets bad enough. What about the carburetor? Could you swap it and see if maybe yours is running lean? I realize there are few things that you can adjust externally, But internal dirt or something could make it run lean.

          Since you have the cooling airflow issues well covered, the other logical possibility is hot gasses escaping where they shouldn't. Possibilities include:
          - Cracked cylinder head(s)
          - Sparkplug boss not smooth enough and therefore letting compression out under the sparkplug gasket.
          Best Regards,
          Mark Julicher

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

            Hi Bill, I asked my little sweet T what kind of CHT's she ran bein's we don't have a gage She said she had no idea what CHT was, all she has had for temps for the last 61 years is oil temp. Settles that. Course we have changed a few cylinders along the way : Just for cheap information, O.T.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

              #1 is the right rear and will get the hottest. I would much prefer to know and tune with egt rather than cht. It will give a better indication of what is going on directly with that cylinder. First thing is too double check the intake hoses on that cylinder. Secondly make sure it does not have an 85/O-200 spider on it. Thirdly, make sure the mixture is full rich and you might try richening the idle mixture screw 1/2 turn. Also what altitudes are you operating at? Have you done a comp check lately?

              Mike

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                Exhaust gasket leak?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                  Only on ONE cylinder:
                  Exhaust gasket leak. hot gases sprayes onto the sensor.
                  Leaning off what cylinder: air entering the induction system on the way from the carburator. = bad hoses, cracked spider, cracked tubing, bad gasket, (Note C 85 to 0 200 and A 65 have a different gaskets in this possition)
                  Are the sealing surfaces on the cylinder and intake elbow straight and true?
                  Use Blue Ink to check, corrosion may cause ruff surfaces and the gaskest may not seal.
                  Use short,cut down socket to get in there, makes it easyer to get the nuts off. The same for the exhaust port.
                  Remove studs and file flat.
                  Let the file ride over the susface with as much contact area as you can get.
                  Smeare a heavy grease on all possible intake parts and if it helps you have vacuum / intake leak.
                  Are the exhaust pipe flanges straight? If not, Staighten them with heat, hammer and file, Start with the file.
                  Len
                  I loved airplane seens I was a kid.
                  The T- craft # 1 aircraft for me.
                  Foundation Member # 712

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                    Thanks everyone, keep the ideas coming !

                    Len, I will check out the nearest exhaust gasket... that's a good idea. BUT!!! Getting the exhaust off is a big pain as we all know !!!

                    Does anyone else have any idea how I might be able to check for hot exhaust gases blowing on the sensor without removing the whole exhaust system and engine? I'd like to explore this possibility immediately since Len's idea would answer a LOT of questions.

                    Thanks again Len and everyone, I appreciate the help!
                    Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

                    Bill Berle
                    TF#693

                    http://www.ezflaphandle.com
                    http://www.grantstar.net
                    N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
                    N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
                    N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
                    N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                      Use a piece of hose or a steathascope with the engine at idle, be careful of prop. check intake gaskets and exhaust for leaks. Thats how I found the leak on mine. George
                      TF# 702 Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember amatuers built the ark, professionals built the titanic!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                        Bill

                        If there were much of an exhaust leak you should see exhaust residue around the leaking component. To troubleshoot an intake leak the following works well: with the engine idling, spray some WD-40, LPS-1, etc on the suspected leaking part (intake flange mating surface, ends of the intake pipe hoses, etc). The idle speed of the engine will increase when the WD-40 is sprayed on the leaking part and is sucked into the intake system. Have you changed your spark plugs? A bad plug can produce the symptoms you are describing.

                        Some other observations: spark plug therocouples will indicate approximately 30-40 degrees higher temp than bayonet therocouples; for maximum cylinder life, GAMI has proven that CHT redline should be set at 380F...yes the Continental limits are much greater but the basic structure of aluminum begins to change above 380F-- John Deakins' engine management articles on AVWeb explain all of this, also there is a lot of info at GAMI.com.
                        Our airplanes were designed and produced long before there were accurate and reliable instrumentation systems available to measure cht/egt. A major redesign of the baffle system would probably be required to produce proper (as we know it today) cooling. I do a lot of Baron/Bonanza and T210 work and to produce acceptable cht values new aftermarket baffles are usually required.

                        Garry Crookham
                        N5112M
                        Tulsa

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                          Just wondering out loud so to speak, but wouldn't a night vision scope show a plume of hot gas as well as all the other hot parts? You would have to run the engine with cowlings removed at dusk to see it well enough.
                          Best Regards,
                          Mark Julicher

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                            I think a night vision scope uses what little ambient light there is, unles you're thinking infrared.
                            1946 BC-12D N96016
                            I have known today a magnificent intoxication. I have learnt how it feels to be a bird. I have flown. Yes I have flown. I am still astonished at it, still deeply moved. — Le Figaro, 1908

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: High CHT... again. All help/experiences wanted!

                              I'd try a different intake spider.

                              Comment

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