Price and availability of wing lift struts

[tawadc95]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

I have Univairs on already Ron, big, sturdy and sealed. It might backfire on me but I doubt the faa will not include them as a means to termination. It is a gamble to add them admittedly but one I am willing to take.
And in my opinion again, if I was an FAA guy looking at this forum I would see it as alot of whining....emotional response if you please as opposed to the deep breath and work with what you are given type of attitude as I see in Forrest's notes.
The reason I even brought it up is I think the knee jerk reactions ultimately hurt our credibility in regards to our comments to the Faa.
My reasoning for putting on new struts is the vent as it is currently done is a flawed design.We put alot of effort into keeping the fuselage sealed and oiled,we create a sump in the fuel system to allow water to run to the lowest point then we go and put an entry hole for moisture in the struts and make the bottom 9 inches the SUMP! That hole introduces moisture with no readily available means of drainage or air circulation,totally contrary to our fuselage efforts and right in line with the idea of a fuel sump system.
Granted it takes years for this process to degrade struts but none the less it is backwards, so, I switched them out.

[Guest]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

I have Univairs on already Ron, big, sturdy and sealed. It might backfire on me but I doubt the faa will not include them as a means to termination. It is a gamble to add them admittedly but one I am willing to take.
And in my opinion again, if I was an FAA guy looking at this forum I would see it as alot of whining....emotional response if you please as opposed to the deep breath and work with what you are given type of attitude as I see in Forrest's notes.
The reason I even brought it up is I think the knee jerk reactions ultimately hurt our credibility in regards to our comments to the Faa.
My reasoning for putting on new struts is the vent as it is currently done is a flawed design.We put alot of effort into keeping the fuselage sealed and oiled,we create a sump in the fuel system to allow water to run to the lowest point then we go and put an entry hole for moisture in the struts and make the bottom 9 inches the SUMP! That hole introduces moisture with no readily available means of drainage or air circulation,totally contrary to our fuselage efforts and right in line with the idea of a fuel sump system.
Granted it takes years for this process to degrade struts but none the less it is backwards, so, I switched them out.

My fuselage is vented at the tailpost, my landing gear cabanes are vented at the bottom and my lift struts are vented at the bottom.

Not sure what you mean by comments in red. My strut vents are probably 1/2" from bottom not 9"

[tawadc95]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

If the hole is not in the end cap the strut can hold moisture and 9 inches is maybe the length of the strut needing to be inspected...random number is all

[Steve Pierce]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

The way I read the AD the Univair sealed struts are terminating action. Been through all this on my Pipers. I would never send Harry Ingram any money. I would punch till the cows come home. I have all the lies documented that he told me way back when everyone thought he was the new Messiah for Taylorcraft and Craig H. and I were a couple of troublemakers.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Yes , The Foundation is leading the investigation by the use of the forumn. All this is being read by the NTSB, the factory, the FAA and many folks who just log in and do not comment.
At the moment I have an F-22 Fuselage here in Alliance along with an BC12D AND a NOS A-A11 fitting , we are cleaning them up and will apply NDT asap. I will use my own struts from my BC12D to participate in this learning experience.
I will be acting as a consultant ( using comments from the forumn and my own knowledge) on the pending Taylorcraft Factory SB pertaining to the
A-A11 strut attach fitting that we now can see pulled completely out of the Wiley fusealge. I am getting permission to post these pictures.
B & D struts are a bit different HOWEVER use common sense if there is rust there may be a problem.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Forrest, perhaps it would be a more efficient and all-encompassing way for the FAA and the Foundation to handle this if the upcoming lower fuselage structure inspection and the lower lift strut inspection were merged into one AD.

It seems silly and accident-prone if they are separated into two, since someone could mistakenly say "Oh, yes, we complied with that strut AD..." and fail to realize that there is a second issue with the lower attach bracket.

As I have said before, I have been informed by an experienced IA and long time Taylorcraft owner that there is a viable way to do a cost-effective one-film mobile X-ray inspection that encompasses the lower struts, the lower fuselage longerons, the upper landing gear attach, and the fuselage strut attach fitting. If this indeed turns out to be the case, then it might be far more efficient in the long run, both for FAA record keeping and for the owners of the aircraft.

The FAA should be made aware (and we should insist that they address the issue directly) that there are valid questions and differing opinions on which types of NDT will reveal cracks, corrosion, wall thickness, and subsurface flaws in tubular steel parts. There are engineers and experts on this forum (some of which have spoken, some of which have not yet spoken) who have professional experience with X-ray, Ultrasound, Eddy Current and everything else... perhaps more experience than Mr. Ingram or others involved in this soap opera.

The FAA / NTSB needs to make it clear whether they are more concerned about cracks, which would dictate one type of NDT or if it is corrosion that they are after (which would indicate another type of NDT). Corrosion is likely the bigger threat here, but that's my guess as a non-engineer.

All comments regarding the current Type Certificate holder notwithstanding (even my own comments), it is clear that nobody wants to fly with unsafe struts or an unsafe lower attach fitting.

And WHY are we still hearing about Mr. Ingram when it is known that other, more trusted persons (reportedly of far higher integrity) are the actual owners of the company now? I would guess that just his name alone being attached to this problem is making it worse and clouding some people's feelings.

Bill

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

All comments are being noted, that is why I have been collecting them, Andrew McAnaul & I have had a 30 min conversation today, yes it looking like we need to incorporate a SB on the lower attach AREA that will be done at the time of the strut AD. He is a very fair and honest person .
The NTSB primary investigator & I have also had two conversations. Harry Ingram is providing the information from the factory as the official drawings for measurements, materials and dimensions.
YES any "approved , PMA'd struts" will comply with the AD. AS we all know Univair did have a problem with applicability, order stuff by Taylorcraft Part # and they will supply the "equivalent" ..... Back to the drawing board.

[crispy critter]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Nobody likes to take it in the shorts if it turns out there is not a rampant problem with bad struts.

If there IS a problem with bad struts, then most of us experienced airplane owners would want it proven, and then we'd want to have as many different ways to fix the problem that are safe.

That way the people who want to buy new ones from the factory can do that, the people who want to fix their existing struts can do that, and the people who want to buy struts from a reputable manufacturer can do that.

I'm whining because I don't want to be a victim of extortion any more than I want to be a victim of structural failure.

Bill,
I have owned several t-craft's in the past and had to replace several struts due to rust in the lower 3-12 inchs(primarily in the rear struts of pre-war birds,but some post war too). A couple of them would have never been noticed had I not took the time to punch around on them with an awle(punch/ice pick).The paint looked great but with just a little lite pressure with a sharp object there was a hole were a hole should not be!

Here is my 2 cents worth on everything.....The people who have good original struts that have been careed for properly over the years and hangered most of the time have all the reason in the word to question this AD,or at least some of the testing methods.However they too could be fooled upon inspection therefore once they have them inspected and find nothing wrong then they will be even more upset,BUT,for those who think there struts are fine then find a problem during the inspection are going to be greatful and maybe at least one or two lives saved in the future(that's worth the cost and aggervation to me).

The Piper guys lost a few people before they got an AD....do we want to wait until our planes start falling out of the sky due to a tight wallet or just being stubbern? Some of our birds(no all and not many) have a problem in this area so lets check them all and be safe.

About the Dave Wiley bird,it was a pre-war airplane with lighter steel tubing used to make the fuslage and all ajoinning fittings. The pre-war birds are a little more subject to have rust or cracks around the gear and strut fittings on the fuslage,especially one that has spent the best part of the last 30 years on floats and used for flight training. So here you have a bird that hadn't been apart in many years,spent 90% of it's time outside on the water flying almost daily doing(forgive me if I am wrong about this part) float training which is a little abusive to an airframe to say the least. I have owned one pre-war project that I flew home and after disassembly I found that it had a moderate amount of rust around the strut fittings and the lower longerons. I have had several post war birds and have seen rust problems in almost every place except the strut fittings. I don't think the strut fittings need an AD on the post war airplanes...not yet anyway.

Bill,I didin't mean to direct this at you but it seemed like a good quote to reply too. You ask for proof and I have at least 8 rusty struts in the top of my hanger.If you would like to see them I will try to get some pics sometime next week when I get caught up a little bit.

In short, I think the strut AD is a good thing based on what I have seen in the past. I think you'll find the outside birds,coastal birds,float birds, and pre-war birds are going to be more subject to the good of the AD. As for the possiblity of a strut fitting or longeron AD.I think it should be subject to only those with the lighter steel tubing(pre-war birds) or float equipped birds for now.

As for the guy with the vented tail post.....watch it closely,if it doesn't have rust somewhere in it then it will have eventually unless the airplane has been in Arizona or New Mexico all it's life. Most or all of the t-crafts had a hole in the tail post but was always sealed with a rivit or some type of something to seal it unless it was a factory seaplane(Forrest,please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I'm correct). I think they left it open on the seaplane incase water managed to find a way in.

Now about all the fuss over buying or inspecting. If I was comfortable in thinking my struts were still fine then by all means save money and have them inspected. For those of you who are not sure and you elect to have them inspected remember if you have one,two,three,or all four fail then you will not only have to pay for the inspection and all labor assotiated with it but you will also have to pay for struts too. So,when you have them inspected make sure you are also aware that they might not pass.

As for the Univair verses Factory....most know that I was disappointed once by the factory but at least now they are trying to make parts and no payment until you get what you ordered. There struts priced seperatly are compatible with Univairs price as well. Just remember if you just buy the struts then you will have to make or buy new jury strut clamps also because all the new strut reguardless of who you buy them from are a larger diameter then the originals. As for everyone blaming the factory for this AD....maybe they started the wheels in motion but the FAA has been investigating it for the last couple of years or longer and if they didn't find any reasons for the AD then I'm sure we would not have it now.

I'm not defending or putting down the factory at this time but simply stating that everyone who has ordered anything from them in the last few months have got there parts and nobody has been stiffed! I was shocked about two weeks ago when my father(why him,his number is listed,mine is not) had a message for me on his answering machine from Harry Ingram himself. He had read my post on this forum about Crispy and what I had said about needing a factory jig if I wanted to repair my badly damaged fuslage and offered to let me use the factory jig for FREE!!!!!! . I tried to call the factory number twice but did not get an answer..just a machine and I didn't leave a message. Right now I'm am considering two other options; one is a complete fuslage from a straight project with no papers but haven't gotten a definate answer from the owner yet on price.The second is a good forward section that has a rusty tail section but I haven't looked at it yet. If niether of these work out then I will try a little harder to get up with Harry on his offer and see what the details are.

Now,if you want to buy new struts and don't trust the factory then call Univair. My advice is if the factory has them at a compatable price then give them a try...they will accept COD so you risk nothing but a little extra time if they don't come threw for ya. Plus,as I stated before, they haven't stiffed anyone in a while,they are trying, they accept COD, and if they can get it together and make it work then we will have unlimited new parts. Ya never know,if they can get back on thier feet, then the people who lost parts or money might be able to get it back.

[btbell]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Forrest,

Will this second pending service bulletin only affect the lower strut attach on the fuselage or does it also affect the upper attach on the spar also?

What is the timeline on this as I also agree it would be best to accomplish both of these inspections concurrently. Many of us are in the planning stages of getting these inspection setup. The clock starts ticking on Monday.

When I spoke with Harry this morning he said he hoped to have some answers today to tomorrow and would relay them to the forum through you. Thanks for representing us and keeping us informed on this very important situation.

Thanks,
Brian

[Robert Lees]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

I've created a new thread about fuselage internal corrosion...let's try & keep on topic on these important issues

[DanBrown]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

My T-Craft was in the shop anyway for some work so I asked for the initial strut inspection as per the AD/SB. Well, my AI found corrosion in my struts. I'm actually thankful for the AD -- I take my responsibility as a pilot and owner seriously, and don't want to fly an aircraft that has a higher than normal risk of failure. I have no wish to be the pilot of the first T-Craft to experience in-flight failure of a wing strut. So I agree with grounding my ship until the struts are replaced.

I called Univair: They responsed that their struts have PMA approval for the BC-12D only, not for my BC-65. So I ordered a set from the factory. I hope Kevin and others are right that the factory is now being straight with all of us. I wish them well. IMHO, it would be a great benefit to us if they can produce enough parts at a competitive price to keep us flying.

The factory has a backlog now, and quoted me 3 weeks until ready to ship. Stay tuned...

[robbie]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Dan
Keep us posted on your factory struts,
Were are your struts bad, and where did you find your problem on the struts?

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Is there a physical difference between the early B struts and those on the BC12D, other than the obvious chordwise dimension?? Fit? Strength? Paperwork?

[lfries]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

Your comment not wanting to be the "First" supports that there is no
need for an AD. Just because there are those IA's who will keep planes flying
no matter what, dosen't mean that all those whose planes are maintained by responsible owners and IA's need to pay the price for those who don't. What we need is more A&P"s and IA's who know to inspect these AC.

[cpirrmann]

Re: Price and availability of wing lift struts

The factory has a backlog now, and quoted me 3 weeks until ready to ship. Stay tuned...

Backlogged so soon? How many orders have they gotten?
Seems to me they weren't ready...hmmmm. Looks like those buying struts from the factory will be waiting a long time. Don't know if others will fare much better. Hope we're all not legally grounded while waiting.