Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

Is there a possibility that the pilot is on the step but the plane is flying normally? Meaning, it is an imaginary feeling. When it's on the step... how much of a speed increase are you seeing... or is this just a feeling of tighter control authority and the like? I'd like to get me L2 to do this and I just installed an 85HP, in 6 weeks I'll have a metal prop (hopefully) and I'd love to boost the speed up to 100-105. Any feed back on the step and L2 flying?
Thanks; ED OBRIEN

It is a better control feel due to the increased speeds. Nothing imaginary about it. The L-2 does not have a "on step" feel. Our "M" with an 85 would run around 105mph indicated. It does not fly like the side by side and has its own set of characteristics. I actually think I like the L-2 a little better, especially with some HP.

Mike

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

I have over 20 different aircraft types in my logbooks. All have "happy places." Some climb great and cruise with a wabble (think V-Tail Bonanzas in rough air) Some climb like a lead balloon and cruise rough air like a liner (think Bellanca Viking) some cruise like an airliner and land like a taildragger (think 690 Commanders) some diving like a falcon and float like a butterfly (think Turbo 210 from 30,000 ft with a too fast landing) So maybe the step isn't a speed thing... but a perfect place in the flight regime. Being that I've never experienced it, atleast in a -Craft... I suppose, I'm posing the question more than making a statement.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Chet Peek]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

Tribe: Somewhere in my notes, I cannot find it in the book, I recorded an old time Taylorcraft employee's description of a flight with C. G. Taylor. During this flight Taylor demonstrated the "on the step" feature by climbing a bit over the cruising altitude, then diving slightly. So C. G. believed in it.

Back in the 1930's we all believed in this phenomenon and it was not confined to Taylorcrafts. I'm not sure one way or the other now.

And again, I hope to meet some of you at Oshkosh.

Chet Peek

[tawadc95]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

p.s. I just love these flying discussions...really makes you think about something we dearly enjoy!

[Dano"T"]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

Analyze it all you want...We have 4 Taylorcrafts (2) 65HP Pre wars and (2) BC12D's one 85HP and one 90HP....they all do it except the 65HP with the wood prop. The 85 HP on floats even does it....I don't know why....but they do it just the same. I have a 71-42 prop on the floatplane and it cruises at 97MPH...the 90HP on wheels has a 76AK-2-40 and cruises at 105mph.....the 85hp floatplane on wheels cruises at 108....with the 71-42 prop.

[Pearson]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

In a jet this phenomenon is called the best L over D speed. It is where the line for lift "L" crosses the line for drag "D" on the performance graphs. It is the point in the acceleration phase where you reach a point of diminishing returns. You CAN go faster, but the price you pay (increased drag) isn't worth the added lift you get. By flying at best L over D, you are getting the most miles per gallon of fuel, but not travelling as fast as you might be able.

In a Taylorcraft, or any comparatively slow plane, the benefit of cruising in the "sweet spot" at best L over D, would still exist, but it would be pretty small.

[dedrekon]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

What a great discussion!

I think perhaps the thing that's bringing so much discourse is the phrase "on the step", which brings to mind a boat or float the comes up out of the water and therefore sheds most of the resistance (drag) of the water.

Obviously the airplane can't come up out the air (which according to Bernoulli acts as a liquid), but it also seems obvious that by presenting the least frontal area, you would gain the most speed and least drag. Perhaps the best way to do this is to DROP into cruise. The tail would be high and likely the airplane would be presenting the least frontal area. I certainly don't dive into cruise. but I do "drop" in just a little.

Also, Bill has an excellent point in regard to hysteresis. Hysteresis is a "bistable" state in which, even though certain circumstances may seem the same, preceeding actions have changed the outcome, or state, of the object in question. Hence the example given in Wikipidia (Bill's old nemesis) that "Lung volume at any given pressure during inspiration is less than the lung volume at any given pressure during expiration". By linear logic this seems impossible, but it is a fact.

cheers,
V

[VictorBravo]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

There are two groups of people who fly, and two ways that flying can be looked at, in my bumble...er...humble opinion.

The flyers fall into two categories, the scientists and the artists. The scientists will tell you that the numbers do not and absolutely can not add up to anything different whether you dive onto your cruise altitude or climb into it.

The artists will tell you arm-waving wide-eyed stories about how the plane flies a little better after you wash it, or that the plane talks to you if you listen, all that kind of utter mumbo-jumbo that pisses the scientists off routinely.

The term "voodoo" has even been used in this discussion thread... that's it exactly People who fly airplanes for a very long time, or in certain types of environments know without a doubt there is sometimes more than just physics going on in an airplane.

Personally (thanks for asking), I think the Taylorcraft and a lot of other airplanes operate in the "voodoo" area, even if they were designed and built by the scientists.

The scientists cannot explain how those B-17's managed to stay together with half of everything shot up, bleeding fluids, on fire, and managed to bring the kids home. I know why. The scientists will tell you that the law of averages HAS to catch up, and that no one aircraft design can fly for a hundred million hours under every possible flight condition without one structural failure, but the DC-3 pilots know different.

The scientists have it pretty much correct about 95% of the time. The four forces of flight , lift coefficients, density altitude, all of it. Good work guys. As for the other 5%, some of us have been there, whether it's flying "on the step" or making a 50 mile final glide in dead air in a soaring contest, with the numbers telling you you can't make it back home, but you roll through the finish line anyway.

The difference between the scientists and the artists is that the scientists bang their fists down on the table and won't ever acknowledge that the artists know something that they don't, but the artists acknowledge that both points of view are correct at one time or another.

May I direct any interested scientists to read Richard Bach's short story called "Steel, Aluminum, Nuts and Bolts" If not that, dear scientists, just look into the eyes of your family dog when your kid is feeling sad and the dog makes him smile... the dogs are tuned into that 5% too

[DanBrown]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

On physics -- If you assume everything is linear, the step shouldn't exist. But many systems are non-linear, and have more than one state. The initial conditions (starting at high or low airspeed for example) affect the result. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory or google chaos theory.:clue?::

[Len Petterson]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

On the step she gain speed. Yes. but to keep her on the step is difficult.
Nose sligthy low but not desending, according to the altimeter.
There is a fine line here, and she indicates 98 - 100 easy from 88.
I have never been able to maintiane this attitude and speed for any lenght of time. "Not aveable on hot days" never found it in the summer.
The powersetting I used was 2100 rpm prop 74/45.
My trim has some play in it and may not stay complitly still due to air loads and it may not be staidy enough to hold the attitude.
The elusive "sweet spot", look for it's there! (;f

[lfries]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

I can only relate to the boat I use to have. Over Power to get on
step then stay there at 1700rpm. Don't overpower and its most of
the day to get there at 1,800 RPM.

[flyguy]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

I like the reference to Chaos theory. There is some really strange stuff going on out there when you start dealing with things like turbulent flow. It might have something to do with where the break-over-the-top, break-over-the-bottom line on the leading edge is located initially. Which might be determined by the previous state. Which might be different depending on the previous airspeed.
I wouldn't throw it out on a scientific basis, and I'm one of the "Scientific" types, thought I like to draw and write too.
Darryl

[tawadc95]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

Ha Gang,
I love these flying discussions.
Talked with my dad the other day about "the step" and he says it is true too.
He has done about alll in an airplane there is to do with 37,000 hours so I am going to go experiment a bit with what he told me to do and report to you.
He did mention it is getting "in front'" of the power curve but is more difficult for lower powered airplanes to do as so much of their thrust is spent developing liftas opposed to forward speed.
And a cute one for the books here.He is still an ag pilot at 73 but way back in his early days he would ferry cherokees for his boss who owned a rental service as well as the ag.He learned from a fellow pilot to put a matchbox under the flap handle so they were ever so slightly deployed and go above cruise altitude about 300 foot and descend over a 4 minute period and he gained 10 mph,didn't work as well without the matchbox.
I got a real kick out of that one!

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

Talking about Voodoo! We have a local pilot that built a Bi-Plane, flying boat. Sorry I do not remember the kind but he lost a wing one day while flying along straight and level. The plane did a complete roll before he figured out what was going on. He found with full rudder, full aileron, and the proper throttle setting he could fly almost straight. By making all turns in to the two wings he was able to fly it back home, land it and rebuild the wing to fly again! True story we were there. However the designers of the plane said it was impossible. They even did computer simulation and that said can't be done! but he is still here flying, dancing, building another boat. His first boat was a paddle wheeler that pushed a barge with a small crane to lift this plane in and out of the water. Another wards a real Character!
Larry

[flyguy]

Re: Can a Taylorcraft fly faster "On Step"

RE: Original Subj. I went out trying to get the mag that went sour on me the other day to give up again.

While warming things up at 2500 over the field I tried everything I could do to get more speed at cruise power setting on the 85. Up from slower speed, down from higher altitude, reduce power from full tilt. Results: 103, 103, 103, 103, ad nauseum. Really quiet morning, unusual for here. Today at 2300 RPM it was going to go 103 and nothing else.

At least the mag did do it's thing when it got warmed up. Runs good on cool days, doesn't like the heat though. I think I hear the sound of money getting ready to leave my account--
Darryl