Two's better than one!

[dennispip]

I can't compare the 21B to the 19, but I think there is probably a difference as they are not identical. I do know that filling the 21B up with 42 gallons in the wings makes it a totally different plane that when it is about half full or less. The gross wieght is higher (1750# max) and the Center of Gravity is higher with that weight up there in the wings. For long times in the air, it is a plus. I personally keep my fuel load down when flying locally as it is more "flyable". In my experience, the 21B develops a pretty high sink rate below 65 MPH with power off. Adding a 100 or so RPMs makes it work just fine.

I'll be interested in your observations, Brady, after you learn the nuances of the 21B. Hopefully you can compare them at the same gross weight. I think they are both Taylorcrafts, but they are not identical twins.

[Brady]

Ah...now I get it!

Iktiller,

Thanks for the prop explanation! That's not all that intuitively obvious, but once explained makes sense. Theoretically, it's not hard to envision, but it seems like it would be difficult to measure in practical application--especially if it has been changed from the original specifications.


Dennispip,

Yeah, I can imagine all that weight up high would change the flight characteristics of your F21B when fully fueled. My F21 only has 24 gallon capacity--same as the F19. I didn't get a chance yesterday to do my comparative take-off test. The weather was crappy here in the morning.

My intention is to fill them both with full fuel, on the same runway, under hopefully the same winds, just to get a baseline on which one will get off the ground shorter. The F19 weights about 80# less than the F21. I guess if I really wanted to isolate all the variables, I'd need to put the same prop on both. I'm going to have someone observing to get a good mark on where the wheels lift off.

The weights should be about

(940+160+260)=1360 for the F19 on 100HP. (71-41 prop)

(1020+160+260)=1440 for the F21 on 118hp. (72-53 prop)

Anyone want action on which one will get off shorter?? Maybe I could make a pay-per-view event!!!


I also want to see what the stall speed differences on each one is. I know there could be inherent inaccuracies in the airspeed indicators. I'm hoping that with what I can observe on the airspeed indicator, in combination with a GPS, I can get a fairly accurate picture of the stall speeds with full fuel. I'm thinking that if I can make an observation with the GPS, then reverse course 180 degrees and do it again, the average GPS ground speed should be pretty close to the TAS at a given altitude. To validate that, I should see the same indicated speed in each direction. I'll probably look at the stall speeds power-off and power-on.

Brady

[lktiller]

(940+160+260)=1360 for the F19 on 100HP. (71-41 prop)
(1020+160+260)=1440 for the F21 on 118hp. (72-53 prop)

Here's my GUESS! The F19 will accelerate faster to rotation speed. The lighter weight and lower pitch prop will produce a greater angle of climb at the same indicated airspeed. Once they overcome the ground friction and the climb to altitude, the F21 will overtake the F19 in cruise (70%power) because of the higher pitch prop and the higher cruise rpm.

Both have same drag, so load 'em up at identical weight and identical prop and the flying characteristics will be identical. That extra 18 hp doesn't count under identical circumstances.

[dennispip]

Does anyone know if there is a difference in the wieght of the engines? Also, is there any difference in the mounting and the effect that could have on the location of the C.G. If the longitudinal C.G. (datum) differs, that could affect the landing/handling characteristics between the two models. The 21B has a large baggage compartment with 200# capacity. That makes me wonder about how they compensated for the aft CG that could cause if loaded to capacity... i.e. how did they extend the envelope that far aft without something being done up front to permit that? Just wondering.

[Forrest Barber]

The C.G. range is about the same for all models. We moved the battery around a bit and had the shortest engine mount we could build on the Lyc powered ships. there is a ballast weight in the tail of the F-22's . YES FOLKS up to 8-10 lbs. of lead above the tail spring. Changed the spin characteristics a wee bit...

As too drag , the F-21 and up has a wee bit more drag do to the fat cowling; one fine gentleman comments on seeing the Prototype after I landed that it looked like a "hummingbird that ran its nose into a Dixie cup" Lou Whitaker said that!!!

[Brady]

Test delayed...

Just when I was going to try to do my test to compare the takeoff performance of my F19 vs F21, I developed a nasty drop on the right magneto on the F21. Mechanic and I have been fiddlin' with spark plugs and wires and such, but to no avail, and it looks like the right mag is coming off. Dammit!!! If the mag needs to be replaced or rebuild, I'm going to just go ahead and have a fresh annual put on the plane while it's down.

The good news is...my highly unorthodox plan to have two airplanes is already paying off. With the F-19 to fly, I've hardly missed the F21 the past two days.

Forrest,

I see what you mean about those engine mounts on the F21. Not much room to maneuver behind the engine when working on those magnetos. It's crammed in there close to the firewall. The F19 has all sorts of space behind the engine.

[lktiller]

nothing unusual about buying an alternate airplane. Especially among Taylorcraft owners.

And like many others, I'm flying instead of rebuilding.

N33943
N95901

[Robert Lees]

Me too.

G-BREY
G-BRPX

Rob

[Brady]

Rob...What part of England?

Rob,

Where are you at in England? I was at RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge out in Suffolk from '89-'92. The base closed shortly after I left. At some point, I've flown over just about every square inch of the UK. I really miss it. We haven't been back since leaving. Have nothing but fond memories, including having our first two children there. We rented a pretty little house in the country near Ipswich. At one point there were six A-10 squadrons in England--now there's none. Hardly the same now without all the Hogs and F-111s. I guess there's still some F-15s.

Brady

[Robert Lees]

I'm in Leicester, dead centre of the country. Ex-WWII airfield EGBG, even Ike came here in 45 (before my time, you understand).

4 miles from where the UK Austers (nee Taylorcraft) were built, we are now the home of about 1/3 of the UK contingent of US-built Taylorcrafts...quite a coincidence. A lot in Chet Peek's book about our club.

Rob

[Brady]

British Connection

Rob,

I read the bit about your flying club. Is it still the same club that's mentioned having bought a 40 hp Model A T-Craft in 1937--the Leicestershire Flying Club?

I was looking at the pictures of the post-war Austers. A couple of those Beagle and Huskey models look like great airplanes. Are many still flying? Any in your club?

Sad story about Mr. Wykes.

Nothing like flying over the English countryside on a clear day. I particularly liked the North York Moors, and Scotland. I deployed often to Germany and on the return flights, over the North Sea, just as the cliffs of Dover would start to come into view, I'd imagine what a joyous sight that must have been for returning crews in WWII. There were several WWII fields close to where I lived. Parham, the home of the 390th Bomb Group had a nice little museum set up in the restored control tower at the time. The also had a small piece of concrete still used for light planes on the old field.

Anyway...I'm sure it's great to fly Taylorcrafts there.

Cheers,
Brady

[Brady]

Unofficial results are in...F21 beats F19 in a walk

The annual on F21 is complete and I finally got a chance to compare the takeoff performance of my F21 and F19. I thought that maybe the F19, being 80 lbs lighter, and having a climb prop might be able to get off the ground in a shorter distance. It didn't happen.

I loaded each plane up with 24 gallons of fuel and me (about 260 lbs). I made several take offs with each aircraft and had a friend mark the distance, then paced it off later. With about 8 knots headwind component, the F21 got off in about 260 feet! The F19 took about 345. I actually think the pitch on the F19 (41 inches) is too fine. It does have bigger tires too, which might account for a little more drag on the pavement.

The F19 slows down nicer on landing and you can really put in on a spot and stopped in about 250 feet. Drops like a rock in a slip! Had fun with it latter that day in some strong crosswinds on a very narrow strip cut out of a forest with tall pines on all sides. The wind were really swirling once you got below the trees. I think I need to adjust down the idle on the F21. Hard to get it slowed down for a min run landing on anything other than a very shallow approach.

Hoping to get to the Gumbo fly-in this weekend.

Brady

[Yellow Duck]

Brady

Would love to see either one of the T Crafts
Lee

[CraigH]

Brady,
From the performance I've seen from my F21B, I'm not surprised your F21 beat the F19 on takeoff - the take-off performance simply amazing!

I've been experimenting with short landings in the F21B. Best way I've been able to manage them without coming in shallow and slow is to slip aggressively to get the airspeed down, then flare slightly right before touchdown. Been able to do a couple of extremely short landings, but I'm not consistant enought yet. 10 more hours or so and they should be more consistant. Might want to give that a try.

Would like to see some pictures of your planes as well.

[CraigH]

Brady,
From the performance I've seen from my F21B, I'm not surprised your F21 beat the F19 on takeoff - the take-off performance simply amazing!

I've been experimenting with short landings in the F21B. Best way I've been able to manage them without coming in shallow and slow is to slip aggressively to get the airspeed down, then flare slightly right before touchdown. Been able to do a couple of extremely short landings, but I'm not consistant enought yet. 10 more hours or so and they should be more consistant. Might want to give that a try.

Would like to see some pictures of your planes as well.