Prop Strike - need help

[btbell]

Hello all,

Well a good day (passed my IFR check ride in the AM) turned bad in the PM when I flew the T-craft. I flew a few patterns and then stopped for gas and did the right thing and got a pilot I know that works for the local FBO to step away from the desk for a few minutes and sit at the controls while I propped the plane (they were not comfortable with propping themselves). To make a long story short, the T-craft nosed over because somehow the elevator went full forward and the throttle advanced upon start. The prop struck hard with RPMs somewhere between run-up and full throttle. The strike stopped the engine and the engine no longer has compression when pulling the prop through. Fortunately nobody was hurt.

I need some help:

1. Does anyone know a good engine shop that knows the A-65? I need to send it out to see how bad it is and the best course of action to take with this engine.

2. Has anything similar to this happened to anyone? What else do we need to look at? The impact was pretty strong and left a 3inch deep gouge in the pavement. I am thinking the engine mount may have taken some of the force.

3. Any other great advice out there??

Just goes to show that when you do everything by the book things can still happen......licensed pilot at the controls very familiar with the procedure (they own a Champ).

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

Brian
New Jersey

[Bobdog]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Brian, Sorry to hear of your misfortune. These things happen. Your engine has suffered major damage. Because of the lack of compression, I think there is a good chance the crankshaft is broken. The engine will have to be completly torn down and checked for cracked or broken parts. The motor mount is probably OK but it would still be a good idea to strip the paint and look for cracks. These engines are very simple, and any competent engine overhaul shop should be able to check your engine out and give you an estimate on the repair costs. It may be cheaper to find a good running enigine for sale.

Bob

[Dan Mahalak]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

oh dude, you poor fu*$er.

Good luck. sell it as a project.

[AndyDuke]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Have you considered upgrading to a C85 instead. If you could find a time expired engine or one in need of overhaul (the case is the important part here) there is an STC to add O200 cylinder, crank and cams for (allegibly) less than the cost of a set of A65 cylinders. You would also need either the Harer STC or a 337 to put the C85 on. You will need a new prop anyway so that won't add anything to the overall cost. Admittedly there is more paperwork involved and you should discuss this with your engineer first but it is worth considering for the longer term.

What you will get for your money is an aircraft that burns little extra fuel but climbs at 700+ fpm at gross and gets off the ground so dam quick you wouldn't believe.

[Len Petterson]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Broken crank is very possibole!
I would look for another engine, C85 if possible.
If you are selling the A65 I be interested in he cylinders,or as is.
Len

[dedrekon]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Brain,
I'm so sorry for your incident. I would be tempted to throttle the yokel at the controls. Clearly that was the person that caused the damge to your plane.

On the flip side, let me congratulate you on your IFR ticket. I've been working on that myself and it is a true major accomplishment in anyone's flying history. It sure does tighten up one's flying all around, even in a pure VFR TCraft.

Congrats!
V

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Sounds hurt pretty bad. Don't know anyone in your area, sorry. A wood prop would have saved the engine, something to consider if you have it hangered.

Mike

[Len Petterson]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

In restospect over a misshapp in a Taildragger and Handpropping.

Danger Flagg : Owner is asked to handpropp his own aircraft as the Pilot offering assitance by takeing the pilotseat is not familiare with Handpropping!
Now you as the owner has to train this person inthe way you do it.

Handpropping and taildraggers, = older planes, if the pilot is younger when 40.
Or a newly trained pilot, BE AWERE! He is NOT familiare with either subject.

I ASK: have you flown a taildragger, and when you procede to tell how you want it to be done and the instruct the person on the words used in the start sequence.

This my start sequence.

1; Mags off, brakes on, prime, fuel off, pull trough. 2: brakes on,
Here the starter pulls on the propp to make shure the brakes are holding, control colume back, Mags on, START, fuel on!
Every steep repeted between pilot and starter!
As a starter or when you let someone start you check the persons footstand.
so the person is on a walk away from the propp step!
If it is possible Tie down the tail.
Nosegear pilots are/may NOT be trained to hold the control colume all the way back and to set the Trottle properly.


Controls all the way back Trottle set and locked, the only alowable movement of the trottle is to pull back!

In retrospect, I will never let anyone I dont know handpropp me any more.

I ratter do it my self with the seatbelt on the controls. Trottle set by me.
Shocks under the wheels and fuel of.
In a place away from other planes!
I need the exersies so I puch her away!
If the grass is bumpy let her sitt in a bump!

What is all in retospect = Handsigth is 2020 they say.So true!
I have had help sometimes from other pilots what are knowagble with taildraggers and handproping, they are all over 40!
This summer I shall practice starting from behind the propp.
Don't know if I like what but I shall try it.
We all learn from each other.
Happy flying this summer.(;f
Len

[btbell]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Hi everyone,

First of all thanks to everyone who has offered some help and some words of advice. Just a few more reflections about this particular situation.

In my case, the pilot at the controls was familiar with the process as they own a Champ and she always sits at the controls while her husband props. She was not comfortable propping herself. I would never have someone prop that has not done it before and I would never put a pilot at the controls who did not know the procedure.

Looking back I still cannot figure out what happened and she does not know also. I set the throttle at idle +1/4-1/2" and we went through my normal routine. Pilot climbs in the aircraft. Wheels chocked, brakes set and tested. In this case it was recently run - no extra pulls needed. Blade set. Brakes checked again. Controls back & key on. Pull prop and engine starts.....then BANG.

Before pulling the prop I even added an extra step and looked inside to verify everything. Additionally I could see the controls were back from the front. The only thing I can think of is that the throttle was bumped in a bit at some point and when the engine initially raced the throttle was moved the wrong way and the controls were released or relaxed and it just went from there. When I heard the engine race, I looked at the tail as it went up and the controls indicated full forward. At some point during the mayhem they were moved or released.

After pulling the prop I did my normal step back and to the side to clear the prop area. Between that and the fact the plane was chocked is what I think kept me from getting hit by the prop. If the wheels were not chocked, the brakes probably would not have held and I do not know if I could have gotten completely out of the way in time.

The chocks on the other hand did contribute to the plane uprooting so quickly but if it was not chocked, who knows what would have happened as it went across the ramp after picking me off.

I would agree with most that a wood prop would have minimized the damage to the engine but in this case since the metal prop stayed in one piece with me only inches from the prop at impact I think I will take a busted engine instead of being showered in shrapnel and potentially seriously hurt. The main thing is nobody was hurt.

Anyway, it has been a learning experience. We followed normal routines and did was is recommended by most. I guess that sometimes things can still happen even with planning and well thought out routines.

The insurance adjustor comes out tomorrow to see the plane and I have started to get some quotes. I also fortunalty have a good friend (also a T-craft owner) who works in the aviation insurance industry and he is giving me a lot of good advice as I go through this experience.

I will be sure to keep everyone apprised as to the progress. Hopefully the damage is confined to the engine and prop and she will be repaired in short order and back in the air. In the end, the T-craft should be in better shape than she was before this all happened.

Brian

[btbell]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

This summer I shall practice starting from behind the propp.

Len,

I personally like propping from behind and do this when I have to start it by myself. The wheels are always chocked and tail tied. Throttle locked at idle and everything verified at least twice.

I have a rope tied to my hanger door post that does the trick.

The T-craft is really easy to prop from behind and with the door folded all the way open, I can keep my left hand in the cockpit and ready to adjust the trottle or shut the mags off if needed. The only recommendation I have is to find a comfortable position for your forward foot so it is not in the way of the wheel in case the plane moves.

Relatively easy and I recommend it. In retrospect, I wish I had propped from behind in my case but hindsight is always 20-20 as you said.

Good luck and enjoy propping from behind!
Brian

[crispy critter]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Brian, We do all these safty steps in an attempt(not a guarette)to prevent an accident,however they do happen no matter how cautious we are. Just think what might have happend if you would have overlooked one of those safty steps. The airplane can be fixed,nobody was hurt,and the damage is minimal......job well done. In this case all your safty steps saved lots of damage,injury,and probably more importantly,somebody's life. So,you CAN NOT look at this as "what did I do wrong or what could I have done to prevent this from happening", you need to pat yourself on the back for taking all those safty steps because they WORKED!!!! You kept the airplane in one place,out of your face,and it didn't get away from you. This is why you pay the insurance company.Sure,you pay them all that money hoping it is a big waste however when shit happens ....well,it happens. Now your bird will be fixed,you'll have a new prop and fresh major. In a way you save money in the long run because you would have to pay the insurance anyway and now they pay for a new firewall forward,LOL. Ya got to look at everything positive,like the glass is half full and never empty. Glad your ok.

[DannyDot]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

This has convinced me to always have the tail tied down when I start my little T-craft. Fortunately I have a tie down out in front of my hanger.

Danny Deger

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

As I am in the begining of a complete rebuild, would a tow release in the tail be worth the effort for my bird? Where I fly I will be alone 99% of the time, ( 3 birds on the field now, one of them my ultralight, one out of annual for 4 years, and the other one gets about 5 to 10 hours a year) getting in and cuting myself lose sounds good to me. Larry

[Len Petterson]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

not a bad idea. you can never be tooo safe. sometime i wish i had one.

[Guest]

Re: Prop Strike - need help

Hi everyone,

First of all thanks to everyone who has offered some help and some words of advice. Just a few more reflections about this particular situation.

In my case, the pilot at the controls was familiar with the process as they own a Champ and she always sits at the controls while her husband props. She was not comfortable propping herself. I would never have someone prop that has not done it before and I would never put a pilot at the controls who did not know the procedure.

Looking back I still cannot figure out what happened and she does not know also. I set the throttle at idle +1/4-1/2" and we went through my normal routine. Pilot climbs in the aircraft. Wheels chocked, brakes set and tested. In this case it was recently run - no extra pulls needed. Blade set. Brakes checked again. Controls back & key on. Pull prop and engine starts.....then BANG.

Before pulling the prop I even added an extra step and looked inside to verify everything. Additionally I could see the controls were back from the front. The only thing I can think of is that the throttle was bumped in a bit at some point and when the engine initially raced the throttle was moved the wrong way and the controls were released or relaxed and it just went from there. When I heard the engine race, I looked at the tail as it went up and the controls indicated full forward. At some point during the mayhem they were moved or released.

After pulling the prop I did my normal step back and to the side to clear the prop area. Between that and the fact the plane was chocked is what I think kept me from getting hit by the prop. If the wheels were not chocked, the brakes probably would not have held and I do not know if I could have gotten completely out of the way in time.

The chocks on the other hand did contribute to the plane uprooting so quickly but if it was not chocked, who knows what would have happened as it went across the ramp after picking me off.

I would agree with most that a wood prop would have minimized the damage to the engine but in this case since the metal prop stayed in one piece with me only inches from the prop at impact I think I will take a busted engine instead of being showered in shrapnel and potentially seriously hurt. The main thing is nobody was hurt.

Anyway, it has been a learning experience. We followed normal routines and did was is recommended by most. I guess that sometimes things can still happen even with planning and well thought out routines.

The insurance adjustor comes out tomorrow to see the plane and I have started to get some quotes. I also fortunalty have a good friend (also a T-craft owner) who works in the aviation insurance industry and he is giving me a lot of good advice as I go through this experience.

I will be sure to keep everyone apprised as to the progress. Hopefully the damage is confined to the engine and prop and she will be repaired in short order and back in the air. In the end, the T-craft should be in better shape than she was before this all happened.

Brian

Hi Brian, sorry for your loss.

I find that I and passengers often accidently knock the throttle forward (towards open) when getting in the plane and getting seated.

Its probably best to set the throttle after the "starter pilot" is seated just in case he/she knocked the throttle then proceed with starting.

I am not trying to say this is what happened but rather that it is something that can happen.

Dave.