Firewall on eBay

[Hank Jarrett]

There is a Taylorcraft Firewall on eBay (item number 120088047561 ). It is being sold by talltcraft64 and the first bidder is cash4w. Are these guys on the group? I had to do a lot of work fixing my firewall and I just think making a die from a nice one like that might be a good idea before it goes into someones restoration.
Hank

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

Same person is selling a set of top cowl doors. If someone else gets them from this group I will want to at least make a good set of drawings so we can make more of them. I have lots of bound up hinges as samples but this one seems to have the original stiffeners on the sheet metal door parts.
Hank

[M Towsley]

Re: Firewall on eBay

Hank,

I don't remember my BC-12D having that dishpan, is that correct for stock???

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

If you mean the rectangular "dent" in the middle I am pretty sure both of mine have it, but now I may want to go look again. Even if it doesn't, a loose firewall would still be nice to make a buck to make copies and if it isn't there just leave it off the copies.
Hank

[tim]

Re: Firewall on eBay

ya that is some nice parts on there but it got me thinking about what u want to do with it well my friend bob has a ton of old used tcraft parts and he has about 6 or 7 old bootcowl i bett if i go and look i could find one that could be used to maker ur die ??

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

In the absence of a Kirksite die and a hydropress you make the part the old way. For a firewall you would need two dies, one shaped like the inside (from the back) to bend down the outside edges and any aft facing dents, and a second die to flip it over and in to for pressing in the reinforcing stiffeners. It's a lot of "tapping" but you can make a really nice part using the pre WW-II prototyping methods. MDF can be used to make the dies if you are only going to make a few.
I already have two good firewalls I repaired built up into boots but there are a lot of guys with some pretty beat up ones out there.
Just one more piece of tooling to start making parts for the future.
Hank

[VictorBravo]

Re: Firewall on eBay

I bought a DVD on ebay showing how they used to make formed aluminum parts with a RUBBER block in a press, pressing ovr a wooden male mold. didn;t need fancy stamping dies, didn;t need two piece dies, didn;t need any tapping. The rubber pad "flows" around the part and presses the aluminum in from the sides. Looks like a GREAT way to make bungee covers, little fairings, spark plug bumps, instrument panels, etc. The key is obviously in the tickness and hardness of the rubber pad.

Check ebay under aircraft parts and search "sheet metal" and "metal forming" to find this DVD. It's hokey, black and white, and not exactly Steven SPielberg, but it shows some interesting methods.

[mustang]

Re: Firewall on eBay

hi hank
thats me bidding on the firewall . i'm trying to work a closed cowl on a pre-war. this is one of the pieces i'm missing.
warren

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

Bill,
What you are describing with the rubber membrane is a hydroform. There is form on the table (we used Kirksite at the rework facility but for limited runs with low depressions I have seen hard wood and other forms, they just don't last as long). You lay a sheet of metal coated with a lubricant on the form and the rubber sheet in a frame is pulled over it. Pressurized fluid is pumped on the other side of the rubber and that forces it down over the form. It makes great sheet metal parts but the machine isn't exactly cheap.

Warren,
Since I don't actually need a firewall right now I won't be bidding on the one on eBay but if you get it how about tracing it out on a big sheet of butcher paper before you use it? I have one attached to a boot cowl with insulation on the inside so maybe we could compare them and make a good drawing. Are you anywhere near the Southeast Virginia area? I am in Virginia Beach VA.
Of course Forrest may have the original drawings in Ohio which pretty much makes all of this a waste of time. (;f

Hank

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Firewall on eBay

OR Forrest may have original firewalls! the boot cowls on them are short, there were three sizes back then. I imagine the drawings needed to be "lofted". I have to explain to folks every week that the "parts" were made from the "fixtures" not the drawings. the drawings were to convince the CAA that the part matched the print. THEY never checked much of this way back then .

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

Got a flash for you Forrest. All the planes I worked on up to the F-22 and B-2 were built to the tooling NOT the drawings and most of the parts we built to the drawings didn't work the first time. We had a full drafting section at the NADEP who took real parts and did "NADEP Drawings" of them that matched the parts, not the factory drawings. THOSE parts fit the airplanes (mostly A-6s and F-14s). It always amazed me that people expected the parts to match the drawings. Factory drawings are just a starting point for most airplanes. The B-2 and F-22 were all designed on computers from the start and the parts are made exactly to the drawings. Everything fits (that I worked with) but there are no real "drawings". The whole airplane exists as a virtual model in a computer. I miss the loft area with draftsmen on their hands and knees drawing out full size parts on the floor. The "real" good old days!
Hank

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Firewall on eBay

Bless you! WE tried back in 1991 to have everything put into the computers and then work out these problems. I have mentioned it sooo many times about the drawing that has a dimension of xx & 29/64ths in. (+/- 1/8th).

How in the heck can you use that one. Now a lot of the small sub assemblies and small parts are good, but the curved stuff cannot be made from the current system of drawings. Lets talk soon direct e-mail and see what can be done. IF a new method is possible , it must be done. I went o Univair and could not believe the automatic stuff being done out there. Here we are still discussing round, oval & streamlined tubing. Out there they do it the right way with tooling that converts the round to oval and with out a huge vice and a big bar It is a great airplane but needs complete update

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

What is needed is a GOOD STRAIGHT fuselage to establish a standard, and if the factory tooling isn't available or that good, you build a new tool around a known good part. Properly designed you could make the tooling so it could build an original fuselage OR one with two inches more width and an inch of extra headroom. Of course those changed fuselages would be strictly experimental (till you owned the design, then it would be the basis of the Taylorcraft C-21 (21st Century upgrade). Those modified fuselages could be used to test out all the little goodies you might want in a brand new Taylorcraft like the improved door and skylight. The same tooling process could be used to make new tooling for all the parts, one at a time, till you had everything you needed for manufacture. While you are building the new tooling you create all new drawings showing the original REAL dimensions as well as the newer version data. That becomes the basis for not just the new, but the support of all the old planes out there.
Beautiful dream, and we have the people ready to invest. Just need clear guidance on how much and when to see if we have enough investors. It would be nice if we could get the rights to the design by paying off the corporate debt. I think we might swing that.
Hank
Call or email any time. Let's see what the major blocks are.

[tim]

Re: Firewall on eBay

hell ya hank id go for that in sec make parts then update lol you would think that the major people who have every thing needed to really make taylorcraft good again would be on here reading are thoughts about are beloved tcraft and how much it would help to have (smart people) in the right spots to keep taylorcraft going and to not add another chapter 11 to the book

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Firewall on eBay

I think the people who know what is needed to make Taylorcraft a going concern ARE on here. The problem is the people who own the rights aren't, and when we talk to them they don't listen.
If you want Taylorcraft to survive and thrive you need to support all the little guys who are passionate about the airplane. You are never going to do it if profit is your motive, at least not in the short term. We need to keep the company out of Chapter 11 but NO ONE is going to get rich building LSA airplanes except the lawyers suing the people involved. We need a lawyer who is a Taylorcraft lover on our side. It isn't all about manufacturing and engineering. It's the business, financial and legal sides that will kill us. BUILDING the planes is easy (OK, relatively).
Hank