Opinions on this plane please

[Gary Snell]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

Makes no sense to me why folks suggest our fine birds are worth so little when cubs and champs are listed at 25-40K. I like them too, but in the final comparison, I fail to see that sort of discrepancy in value.

[fearofpavement]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

The subject of restoration costs have been beaten about on this forum a number of times. There is no doubt that someone may spend 20 plus thousand restoring a Taylorcraft that they have already purchased. That investment is for their own purposes and not intended to turn the plane and get their money back. No matter how much work has been done on a Taylorcraft it is still going to be in a market that typically sees sales in the 15 to 20 thousand range. A really special plane may get into the low 20's. But, hey, anyone can advertise any plane for however much they want and ya just never know who may pay that much. But to answer the original question, the plane is outside the typical market parameters. The BC-12D is not a rare plane, the demand for them isn't exceptional and there are a lot available for a lot less money. But if it the plane you want, make an offer (contigent on a pre-buy inspection).

[crispy critter]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

Tell me about it! I could tell you guys what I have in Crispy up to this point but I'm afraid someone on the site would have me committed before I even get to test fly her.lol

[Dan Mahalak]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

wheels, skis and floats for a 1977 F19 (100 hp)...$32500, now that is a Okay price.

[CraigH]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

$28,000 should buy you an in-annual, nothing wrong with it, mid time engine, not too ugly 118 horsepower F-21B Taylorcraft, not a BC-12D.

Not sure about that one Bill. Mine brought $42500 with a few weeks of advertising it for sale. If I could find one like you describe for $28K and it didn't have leaky tanks, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat!

[alwaysoar]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

If I had the money, and there was a restored (properly restored!) BC12-D 65near me for 28K, I wouldn't balk at the price. It's taken me a lifetime to finally realize that buying cheap and fixing up is more expensive in the long run and very frustrating, whether houses, cars, airplanes, or marriages. It is almost impossible to make like new something old and beat up. But the crux of this issue that comes up all the time on this forum is: is it in fact restored? Shakespear wrote that, "All that glisters is not gold," which also means that something can be substantially beautiful that does not look that way.

Buying a 60-year-old airplane is always going to be a risky business. Learn all you can, then hold your breath.

Ed@BTV VT
TF 527

[VictorBravo]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

Hi Bill, what did you pay for yours?

There was prior discussion months ago when I was trying to assess the value of mine and you had mentioned one for $28k.

Dave

I paid 14 thousand, which was a very good deal considering the plane is well above average cosmetically and structurally. Should have been about 15 or 16 in my opinion.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

A perfect restoration of a Taylorcraft out of my shop with everything "0" SMOH would cost in the ballpark of $40K. Otherwise the kid at Mc Donald's would make more per hour than I would. Just start adding up the costs and you will come to the same numbers.

Mike

[Dusty]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

The only airplanes you tend to see that are worth that's typically invested in rebuilding them work for a living: Cubs, Beavers, etc. Tcarts and Champs cost at least as much as Cubs to rebuild, assuming similar problems, but they'll never make any of that money back. So, a Tcart or Champ is worth what you're willing to pay for it or put into it. A cub is worth about $300/hour.

I'm willing to pay more for a Champ than a Tcart because a Champ better does what I need to do most of the time. Visibility, access to the baggage, ease of entry, modification options, and other things are all considerations, and the Tcart leaves a lot to be desired in those areas.

I don't understand why so many Tcart owners are offended that Tcarts aren't worth a fortune. I'd not be a pilot if it were not for $20,000 airplanes. For $20K you can get a light 90HP low-time Tcart with all the AK mods, a 115HP Champ with lots of mods, or a small pile of Cub parts. For $40K you can have one of each of the former, or perhaps a runout cub in need of $40K worth of fabric and engine. If you're lucky.

"Properly restored" means different things to different people. My "perfect" Tcart would be an 800-pound airplane with a C-90, long prop, beefed up gear, a B&C alternator with a radio, lights, and a tiny battery, 6' metal baggage, H&W exhaust, MS carb, 5 hours of fuel, and Cleveland brakes. I'm only missing the brakes....

Since I don't have the mental capacity (or opportunity, if I did) to work at my job for 16 hours per day, and working on airplanes is downright enjoyable, I value my time working on my own airplanes at zero. I'm not offended that I could be making a LOT more money flippin' burgers. If I was paid to work on my airplanes it would feel like work, and that's precisely what I'm trying to get away from.

I, personally, have no use for "original" 65HP airplanes of any flavor, and they are, to me, worth nothing. That means those of you who DO appreciate that stuff have one less person who's likely to buy an airplane out from under you. Many of you would have no use for all the gunk that makes a Tcart an acceptable airplane for what I do with airplanes, so I was able to get mine for about a third of the price of a ratted-out Cub. All works out nicely, doesn't it?

FYI: There's a 150HP F15 with floats, wheels, and skis for $30K in Fairbanks. Ratty but serviceable fabric, otherwise seems to be a pretty good airplane. Sell the floats, put a new cover on it, and you have a $30K 150HP Tcart.

If I had the money, and there was a restored (properly restored!) BC12-D 65near me for 28K, I wouldn't balk at the price. It's taken me a lifetime to finally realize that buying cheap and fixing up is more expensive in the long run and very frustrating, whether houses, cars, airplanes, or marriages. It is almost impossible to make like new something old and beat up. But the crux of this issue that comes up all the time on this forum is: is it in fact restored? Shakespear wrote that, "All that glisters is not gold," which also means that something can be substantially beautiful that does not look that way.

Buying a 60-year-old airplane is always going to be a risky business. Learn all you can, then hold your breath.

Just needed repeating.

[Guest]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

many, many good posts on this subject, thank you for all of them, I enjoyed reading them and learned some things

[DanBrown]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

With all the experienced tribe putting in their shiney 2 cents -- I'll add my tarnished 1 1/2 cents --

These days, a LSA quailifed ship tends to have more market value than a similar, better performing airplane with higher gross weight that falls outside that envelope. I spent about 6 months looking at everything advertized (didn't find this forum until about the last month) that I could afford. For myself, I'm not that good a mechanic, don't have any space to work on a project, and (if I'm lucky with the progression of my health problems) have about 5 years left where I can safely fly. (Today is my 75th birthday -- thanks for the message from the foundation).

So I investigated everything (T-crafts, Aeoroncas, Luscombs, Ercoupes, even kitfoxes and other similar homebuilts) advertized at less that 30k within 500 miles of me, and even flew out to the middle of the country to look at a couple that didn't pan out I hoped to buy at around 20k for an acceptable aircraft.

The ability to fly again at an affordable cost is precious to me. So for me, I would add about 5,000 to the price of an average time, in-annual, BC-12 or BC-65 for one in pristine condition. If it really checks out as advertized, with all the paperwork and history OK, I would make an offer with the hope of paying a couple G's less than the asking price.

Good hunting,

[crispy critter]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

Sorry for the late addition to this subjust but here is my opinion. You get what you pay for. I don't know how many of you guys have really been keeping up with the prices lately or looking at the airplanes with those price tags on them but the prices are up. I.E. A guy from WV bought Jerry Selfs airplane. He looked long and hard for a good deal that was at or below $17,000,that's what he paid too. It looks pretty good but it has a high time engine and 30 year old ceconite fabric. He had looked at a couple other birds before buying this one that had newer fabric and a lower time engine but the price was more and they was not in as good shape as Jerrys. Right now I have Jerrys bird scattered all over my shop just trying to catch up on some of the little things that has been negleted over the years by his IA. So with everything this guy has already spent he has close to $20,000 in it and it still has a very high time engine and 30 year old fabric. The engine still runs great and the fabric is still good but this stuff still needs to be planned for,especially the engine in the near future.
Most of the T-crafts with mid time engines and fabric from the 1990's era(remember that 1997 is 10 years ago) is selling for around $20,000+. If you can find a true completely restored 65hp BC12D that has all been done properly ,by that I mean completely stripped all steel parts and tubing,epoxy primed,painted,new cables,new or refurbished wood thru-out,new hardware,new properly done major overhaul,etc,etc and you can buy all this for $28,000 then I would say it's not an unwise decision. Just keep in mind that it is a high price for a t-craft however if it is what they say then it is also a brand new t-craft. Several people were planning on spending $70-80k for a factory bird and the only difference would have been the electrics and extra ponies under the cowl and I know you can add electrics and even more ponies for a lot let then $40-50k, not to mention the stock 65hp BC12D has more useful load then the Taylorsport. Of corse this is just my opinion. If you decide to seriously consider buying this bird please pay the extra money to have someone look it over carefully and make sure it is someone who really knows t-crafts inside and out.This way you know what you are getting.

[48fordnut]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

in 75 i sold a new ceconite, fresh rebuilt 65 ,and restored 12 D for 32/3400 bucks just think in 30 yrs what a 28k airplane will be selling for. The reason it sold so cheap,it had a old wood prop. lol.in 60 cubs were sitting for 500.00, in license.

[jdoran]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

There is a logic to buying something that is safe to fly, but knowing it needs some attention. The original cash outlay is reasonable, then while you are having fun flying it, you can incrementally improve it a little at a time thus spreading out the cost of getting a "creampuff"

I enjoy learning how to do stuff, so I like to be involved in doing repairs, learning new skills, etc.

If I bought a "creampuff" I would have to spend a lot more up front money, and lose the ability to learn.

It's all up to the individual I guess.

[crispy critter]

Re: Opinions on this plane please

When Crispy was bought by my great grandather in the 1950's he paid between $200 & 400 for it with a mid time engine(300 hours) and original fabric needing recover.It was recovered to look like this and again in 1969 with ceconite by my father and grandfather. In May 1971 it was destroyed by fire and looked like this and this . In late 1971 my father passed on buying a BC12D for parts at a huge price of $250,it had a high time engine,no prop,bad fabric,and a rusty tail section in the fuslage. The wings were perfect and everything was there,in fact with a prop it could have been ferried home.Dad said it was too much to pay because it was 300 miles away and he thought he could find something closer for around the same price....that never happened,in 1972 he bought a 1948 C-170 and has had it ever since.
Now Crispy looks like this and I have well over $25,000 and closer to $30,000
in it and remember that I didn't have to pay any purchace price for this airplane,that is just what I have put into the restore.However I did have a lot of parts to find and I made several mods to it.It has an 0200 on a short mount with no electrics.It is approved for the light weight sky tech starter and the PMA approved B&C alternator which I might install sometime in the futer. This is just a little comparrison from the 50's to the current day as they were told to me.

in 75 i sold a new ceconite, fresh rebuilt 65 ,and restored 12 D for 32/3400 bucks just think in 30 yrs what a 28k airplane will be selling for. The reason it sold so cheap,it had a old wood prop. lol.in 60 cubs were sitting for 500.00, in license.