Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

[Robert Bradbury]

Guys,
If anyone knows for a firewall forward O-290 or O-320 for a Tcarft
please let me know. If I find this I will have a firewall forward C90 for sale.

I'm also trying to locate a ventral fin for a seaplane application .

Any replys or tips appreciated.

Robert

[jgerard]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

I thought only the 65hp Tcrafts needed the seaplane fin. Not required with the 85+hp versions.

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

I thought only the 65hp Tcrafts needed the seaplane fin. Not required with the 85+hp versions.

I'm not sure if that is the case. All I know is that I have an aircraft that exibits bad characteristics during turns that aren't normal . Funny the 85HP and above versions would not need the ventral fin as the forward weight of it and an subsequent versions would have been heavier on the nose .

Robert

[Robert Lees]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

I thought the ventral fin was to counter the aerodynamics, not the weight, of the float area forward of the cg? So quite why a bigger engine would negate the need for the fin is confusing to me.

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

I thought the ventral fin was to counter the aerodynamics, not the weight, of the float area forward of the cg? So quite why a bigger engine would negate the need for the fin is confusing to me.

Right you are Robert Lees. The aerodynamics was the reason and the floats forward of the c of g the problem . I have larger floats than the norm on my
T (1650's) and they have authority in a turn for sure. I initiate a turn and then the floats take over ever increasing the turn. To hold any given bank I
actually have to use opposite aileron and rudder, it really feels weird. Then again I haven't flown a T on wheels .

Robert Bradbury

[Robert Lees]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Well opposite aileron is the norm on wheel-equipped Taylorcraft...how do you mean that the floats increase the turn?

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Well opposite aileron is the norm on wheel-equipped Taylorcraft...how do you mean that the floats increase the turn?

I'll imput the controls for a turn neutralize the aileron and the aircraft will keep
increasing the turn to the point where if I let it go I WOULD enter a spin. I think a normal aircraft would level out with neutral input. Actually,I have to use opposite aileron and rudder to hold a turn especially to the left which feels pretty weird. Kinda like a skidding turn that feels really unnatural.

Robert

[Robert Lees]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Sounds to me then that there is too much float keel surface behind the cg, which would be made worse by adding extra fin area.

What's your cg position compared to a Taylorcraft without floats?

[Note to self: Must dig out that old aerodynamic textbook from the attic]

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Sounds to me then that there is too much float keel surface behind the cg, which would be made worse by adding extra fin area.

What's your cg position compared to a Taylorcraft without floats?

[Note to self: Must dig out that old aerodynamic textbook from the attic]

My C of G is the same as a stock T because I made the rigging and floats
myself . Interesting concept, most always suggest that the area in front of
the C of G would be the problem and that I need to install a ventral fin to correct. It would be nice to know for sure, I sure wouldn't want to aggrivate the problem .

Robert

[stormman]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

My C of G is the same as a stock T because I made the rigging and floats
myself . Interesting concept, most always suggest that the area in front of
the C of G would be the problem and that I need to install a ventral fin to correct. It would be nice to know for sure, I sure wouldn't want to aggrivate the problem .
Right you are Robert B.
Years back we put a 150 / 150 on some really big floats that were too far forward. It got off the water quick and i flew it for sometime untill one day i was showing off to the boys at the pond about a slip to landing.ops: I kicked in left rudder and the darn thing just about started flying backwards. The signs were there before with the having to correct the rudder settings all the time but i just thought it was because of tight cables in the water rudder . It's Not too hard to figure out. The center of gravity is in the wing, stick some floats WAY out in front with more surface area than the tail section and presto your in the news..
You might try moving the floats back a touch. Or a drag chute

Robert B also said
I'll imput the controls for a turn neutralize the aileron and the aircraft will keep
increasing the turn to the point where if I let it go I WOULD enter a spin. I think a normal aircraft would level out with neutral input. Actually,I have to use opposite aileron and rudder to hold a turn especially to the left which feels pretty weird. Kinda like a skidding turn that feels really unnatural.

I know what you mean as my Quicksilver does that too. The reason is its underfloated for two fat boys and we had to move the floats forward to stop the plowing so it would get on the step easier. Im thinking of lengthening the fuselage to give it more leverage arm. I have tried severe slipps with it up high and its not a thing i would slip to landing with. Course im not a test pilot but i do have a rocket chute on it. SOOOOOO do not try it PLEASE.
Hope this helps As you are CORRECT
PS I Love that Robert Lees guy Mainly becasue he's one of us Brits and the Fact I have NEVER seen him wrong about anything. BUTTTTT he must have had too many $5 gas fumes in the hanger as he missed the Float on this one.
Robert L., You are Forgiven My Son

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

My C of G is the same as a stock T because I made the rigging and floats
myself . Interesting concept, most always suggest that the area in front of
the C of G would be the problem and that I need to install a ventral fin to correct. It would be nice to know for sure, I sure wouldn't want to aggrivate the problem .
Right you are Robert B.
Years back we put a 150 / 150 on some really big floats that were too far forward. It got off the water quick and i flew it for sometime untill one day i was showing off to the boys at the pond about a slip to landing.ops: I kicked in left rudder and the darn thing just about started flying backwards. The signs were there before with the having to correct the rudder settings all the time but i just thought it was because of tight cables in the water rudder . It's Not too hard to figure out. The center of gravity is in the wing, stick some floats WAY out in front with more surface area than the tail section and presto your in the news..
You might try moving the floats back a touch. Or a drag chute

Robert B also said
I'll imput the controls for a turn neutralize the aileron and the aircraft will keep
increasing the turn to the point where if I let it go I WOULD enter a spin. I think a normal aircraft would level out with neutral input. Actually,I have to use opposite aileron and rudder to hold a turn especially to the left which feels pretty weird. Kinda like a skidding turn that feels really unnatural.

I know what you mean as my Quicksilver does that too. The reason is its underfloated for two fat boys and we had to move the floats forward to stop the plowing so it would get on the step easier. Im thinking of lengthening the fuselage to give it more leverage arm. I have tried severe slipps with it up high and its not a thing i would slip to landing with. Course im not a test pilot but i do have a rocket chute on it. SOOOOOO do not try it PLEASE.
Hope this helps As you are CORRECT
PS I Love that Robert Lees guy Mainly becasue he's one of us Brits and the Fact I have NEVER seen him wrong about anything. BUTTTTT he must have had too many $5 gas fumes in the hanger as he missed the Float on this one.
Robert L., You are Forgiven My Son

Thanks for the advise guys, all your comments have been helpfull. I know my floats are balanced by the C of G but as Norm said, all of this surface area from two floats in front takes over. I will admit to trying many side slips without any troubles , but ALL turns to me are a scarey event. Unless Mr. Lees can come up with evidence to the contrary from his aeronautical engineering book I will proceed coutiously with the installation of the rear
ventral fin next year. If anyone can remember, two years ago I entered a
spin and could not get out of it with normal corrections. It took a serious amount or power to generate the air over the tail surfaces to make it happen and regain control. And we all know that using power in a nose down spin is a nono right? Anyway, if nothing else I have learned a lesson in spin recovery that all floats equiped Tcraft owners should keep in the back of their minds.
Use the throttle if necessary to regain control from a spin!!!!! There are numerous records of Tcraft owners spinning a T into Terra Firma and I bet they didn't use power for recovery. I don't think any of these people survived
the crash.

Robert

[dedrekon]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Hmmmmmm.....I've some time in a BC12D on Aqua floats (with an 0-200) and never had anything like you describe. Ditto for a pre-war on Edo's (85hp). Neither had a extra fin. Please be very careful until you figure it out. Most spin-in fatalities are caused by somebody doing something very dumb. Of course, we all do very dumb things from time to time.......I've always lived to tell the tale and hopefully gotten a little smarter in the process.

Who has the Quicksilver on floats? I've got a friend with a QS GT500 that I flew off his 25 hours for. I've almost got him talked into floats for it. What input can you give on that? They are a kick to fly.

Vincent

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Hmmmmmm.....I've some time in a BC12D on Aqua floats (with an 0-200) and never had anything like you describe. Ditto for a pre-war on Edo's (85hp). Neither had a extra fin. Please be very careful until you figure it out. Most spin-in fatalities are caused by somebody doing something very dumb. Of course, we all do very dumb things from time to time.......I've always lived to tell the tale and hopefully gotten a little smarter in the process.

Who has the Quicksilver on floats? I've got a friend with a QS GT500 that I flew off his 25 hours for. I've almost got him talked into floats for it. What input can you give on that? They are a kick to fly.

Vincent

The ventral fin were on some Tcraft and are a part of most other seaplanes . It's obvious they are important , serve a purpose and I think my aircraft
definately requires the same. I am not overly experienced but I have flown
five different aircraft over the years and none exibited the tendancies I am
now experiencing .

The spin entry happened during slow flight and stalls that I was practicing at the time. I have done much practice like this before without incident as the T is usually very stable. Stall, hold imput, pickup a wing if it drops, release pressure when you want to fly. The day that it happened I was holding a stall and the next thing I was in a spin, it was violent how I got thrown over. I'm guessing that I was hit with low level jet stream at 5000 feet, because a
little later i heard a commercial flight report low level at about this altitude .
Should i have been practicing stalls in the first place, might be the 'VERY DUMB" part of the equation given that I'm on floats. I just continue practicing
all procedures when I get a chance, and at 5000 feet I felt it was a safe
altitude. Anyway , after 150 hrs on floats now I still have my nose high and feet dry. I just want to try to keep it that way.

Robert

[stormman]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

Micro burst Robert?
I was flying over a lake in the Sierras on a still day and looked over to my left and saw a swirling on the water. Figuring at might be A micro i climed to about 1000 feet and flew toward it . VSI went down and i went to full power and high angle of attack. Sink rate was 500- or more , not sure as i was unlatching doors and locating seatbelt buckles and looking for my life vest inflating lanyard at the time. Not that i was scared or anything , i just thought it was a good time to show my copilot a ditching drill. I could see smooth water ahead and as i was almost out of it at 150 fpm down , full power , full flaps ,when i hit the water in a heel low touch and go fashion. Went to 10 on the flaps and flew out of there. In going back i probably should have just went with it and flown out the other side instead of fighting it and saved the climb until the the last second if needed. Also i should have completed the forced landing. Oh well, lesson learned and now we know on landing if i see that again to turn out of it.
Vince on the 500 what motor does he have? I got the 582 and a C gearbox with a centrifical clutch . I love the clutch and can.t even think of flying without one. The engine starts so easy without the prop load and it makes docking so much easier. Electric starter of course. It takes a camman to pullstart one of those things .The only thing better would be a reverse.
Also its the long oversized floats thats causing Roberts problems and im sure the fin will help . Can't think of a time its ever hurt even on a land plane except on crosswinds and slips.
" A Mans just gots to know his Limitations"

Good luck on the fin Robert! wished i had one for you.

[dedrekon]

Re: Looking for O-320 firewall forward and float fin

I didn't mean to imply Robert was doing anything stupid....he's clearly working through a handling issue in a diligent and careful manner. I was just saying that his problem doesn't seem to be related to the typical uncoordinated turn to final (at low speed) that causes the majority of fatalities in TCrafts, Champs, Cubs and their ilk.

Norm,
The GT500 has a Rotax 912, electric starter and is nicely equipped. Very peppy....it accelerates like a motorcycle when it's light. Here's a couple of pics.

V