BC12D Market Value Discussion

[jgerard]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Good luck and keep pressing on with the skylight Bill. Sorry its been a living nightmare trying to get something new approved on an old bird like the Tcraft.

I have experience with Slats, Slots, and VG's but they are for high angle of attack flight enhancement, I want to fly slower in level flight. Crosswinds STOL in AK makes a leading edge cuff for the Piper that works good on the Tcraft. No speed loss and makes it stall more like a piper. Not sure if it actually adds enough to the camber to affect the pitch required for slow flight. I'll have to talk more with those that have built and flown them. Flaps would be the best thing for what I want to do, but I think only the F22s had flaps and the fuse is a lot different than the B through F21 series planes. I am installing a set of flaps on a Luscombe right now. It will be adding about 17-20lbs to the empty weight. I wonder how much the Tcraft flap setup would weigh. Most of you guys must think I am nuts but since I prefer off airport flying and a lot of the places I like to go require good over the nose visibility to avoid obstacles during TO/LDG a plane that can fly slow in level flight increases your safety margin, reduces the pucker factor, and puts less stress on the tail-wheel.

Enough about my wants and desires, this thread is about the market Value of the fabulous Taylorcraft. I think because the plane is such a capable performer that it appeals to a variety of pilot who exploit it different ways from the economical time builders, aerobatic typs, sport pilot typs, bush pilot typs, and even X-country racing typs. Oh yeah, lets not forget the war-bird and vintage typs! I would say the Taylorcraft is still the best value for $$ spent.

[N96337]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Jason, you're headed the same way I want to go..... and Bill, I'd love to see more of those tips you're talking about... Shoot me a PM and maybe we can put all our heads together on this one....
Sorry...don't intend to hijack the thread.....
JH

[Dusty]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

I paid $20K for 200 hour C-90, beefed up gear, Marvel carb, 24 gal fuel, extended baggage, tundra tires and 8.50s on 2 sets of wheels, electrics, big prop, good but getting older Ceconite, new glass T-cart in great shape. There's an out-of-annual (otherwise pretty good, as far as I know) 85hp @ $14K, and a 150HP F-19 with floats, wheels, skis, and ratty fabric @ $30K locally.

jgerard - have you flown the cuffs on a tcart? I've not.

Why would you want to add any of that crap? Is it because you want to say "_MY_ tcart has FLAPS!", or do you really think they'll improve the airplane? Serious question. I doubt they'll improve the T-cart, but I'm guessing - someone that's converted very light PA-11 to flaps might be able to offer advice that's moderately relevant.

I think you'd be seriously disappointed with anything but normal Cub-type flaps. It ain't a Helio - or 180 - and it ain't got enough power to really use Fowler flaps. You can get the same effect as split flaps by kicking a door open - or just slipping.

I've never flown Junkers flaps, but they look pretty good on paper.

Wing tips are over-rated. Go find an airplane with some fancy tips - any kind - take one off, seal up hole with duct tape, go flying. You'll never feel it. Really!

As you know, slats and slots add angle of attack capability - what you said you don't want (and I agree wholeheartedly!).

A big flat prop will do a lot to slow you down at more level deck angles. Never tried, but I bet a 80/30 or so would be a lot of fun on a C-90 (as long as you're not in a hurry!). Will an O-300 prop bolt up?

A stall strip might be a worthwhile improvement (look at a C-190 for inspiration). I fly the Champ much closer to the edge than the Tcart because I can feel what's going on, and the Tcart sneaks up on me sometimes.

Good hydraulic brakes and peddles that you can actually get to with a rudder all the way down (when you NEED them!!) would, in my opinion, be the single biggest improvement you could do to a Tcart.

3-6" extended gear would probably be #2, but you would REALLY pay in lost visibility.

My 90HP with electrics and all the AK mods weighs 840 - that's 300 pounds lighter than a "light" supercub, and I don't have to carry as much gas. They are LIGHT airplanes! With light loads, I've never been anywhere I had trouble getting out of (sure have in the Champ!). Good brakes would slow that weight of airplane down in a BIG hurry, even if you are landing a couple MPH faster than you could with flaps.

The one thing that will never let a Taylorcraft be a serious off-airport airplane is the visibility. In the Champ, I'm perfectly happy to have a stump a couple inches from either tire. A tree 6" off either wingtip isn't a problem. In the T-cart, I can't see half the tires OR the wingtips, so I sure can't cut it that close. That, the terrible brakes *and* pedal arrangement, and those damn clumsy yokes, and you don't have to worry about an F. Atlee Dodge popping up and making all the Tcarts worth a fortune with some fancy new fueling step STC. The basic airframe requirements for a serious off-airport plane just aren't there. Bummer, because in a lot of ways (light tail, tough fuselage, decent gear, etc.) the Tcart is a GREAT off-airport airplane.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

[jgerard]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Dam Dusty that was a great buy!!

I pulled 78lbs of electrics and IFR crap out of my F19 and it still weighs 890 empty with 8.50's and the 74-42 prop. The long prop sure helps you come out of the sky better than the 69" cruise prop. I's been painted a few times since it left the factory and parts of the baggage compartment are heavier than necessary. After I rebuild it I would be happy with an 860 ish empty with Bushwheels. Flaps lets you fly slow with less of a nose up attitude. The guys that have flown the L.E. cuff on the Tcraft say it makes them stall like a cub with no speed penalty. I am working on a hyd brake setup that is all bolt on and keeps the heel brakes. Does your Tcraft have observer doors? my last one did and it made a huge difference when dodging obstacles on the gravel bars. I used to jump back and forth from a champ to cub to Tcraft all heel brakes but going from a champ to the T was the most drastic change in rudder and brake position. I still think a light BC12D with a hotrod C90 would be the best off airport Tcraft.

[Dusty]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

78 lbs - wow!!

My electrical system is a landing light, nav lights, a motorcycle battery mounted by my left knee, a 5 amp B&C alternator, a radio, and intercom. I love it - I have a real radio, legal at night, good landing light, all for something like 12 pounds. Batteries and headset adapters for handheld radios are a nightmare in the cold, and the landing light is very cool with 4 hours of daylight - it's worth the weight.

My baggage compartment is more like a baggage tray. I need to box it in with .016 AL or heavy fabric to keep the lynx claws out of my fuselage fabric.

Does anyone know where a T-cart with the cuffs is that I might be able to fly? Are they STC or field approval? Sure glad the previous owner built mine up in the days of easy field approvals - I have a very impressive pile of them, and I bet you couldn't get most approved today.

My doors are cut down custom built jobbers - they stop at the diagonal tube by your buttcheeks. Not sure if there's enough structure there for glass - but I'd sure like to try. I've flown glass doors, and they do make a HUGE difference, but they're fairly heavy.

I like heel brakes - not sure where you'd put toe brakes in a Tcart anyway, as my bunny boots already get hung up between the rudders and yoke pipe thingymajigger - I just don't like where they are in the Tcart. They need to be taller and further apart for me to stay on them with full rudder in most footwear. You could do that with new pedals (if you could get them approved), but I fail to see the point as long as I have Shinn brakes.

How do you intend to get around the tapered axles, or does the F-19 have straight? If so, will the gear bolt up to a BC12-D?

Yea, the light C-90 is a GREAT performer. I need to go fly that 150HP F-19, just for kicks.

[stormman]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Just figure i would make u guys drool
Paid $1800 , eightteen hundred dollars in 1978 for mine Bc12d, With F19 baggage , big windows, lexan doors, Cleaveland discs, cessna toe brakes and wheels. Was out of annual for 5 years and sat on the back tiedown with flat tires. painted the the raty wings that made the punch test with emeron. Flew it till a windstorm killed it in 1999 and brought it to Arkansas with me where a KILLER JOHN DEER killed the rudder taking it off the trailer . Stored all over the county now awaitng the building of a hanger to put it in and fix the wings. Won.t be doing the fuselage cus the stits will still hold paint and the epoxey on the tubes still looks good after 30 years.
Put some chrome cyclinders on sometime back and an oil pump. One pluse mag some paint repair. Annuals cost about a case of beer or a couple of t-shirts over the years, probably had less than a $2000 total including the cyclinders. Hows that for Cheap? The new spars cost me $600 but thats in the future repair parts bill along with a few yards of stitts and some paint. Ya it won't be a show plane but i won't be a slave to the plane either. Just give me a good spark and a GREAT fuel system and lets go flying . What really pisses me off is a 30 thousand dollar hanger for a 10 thousand dollar plane(;f