BC12D Market Value Discussion

[Tim Haake]

I started my search for a BC12D a few weeks back and have some questions regarding their value. I presume there is a book value for them but ultimately the price seems to be generally substanciated on more factors then just what a book might say. There are projects but I am not looking for discussion in that area. I'd try to break it up in three catergories with the first being new or within the past year total restoration to include 0 time engine, second same but restoration within the past say 10 years and then finally third aircraft that might be a mixture of comments like 15/20 year old fabric, mid to high time engine, etc.

I realize I am maybe opening the door to all kinds of opinion here but I want to limit the "value" discussion to the hardware value and not that someone took 3 years or 5 years to restore input. How can you put a price on that? I am an A&P with IA and have done that with 3 planes in my aviation life time and I lost on everyone of those if I were to factor in that time, blood, and sweat.

I also am sure that STCs can affect their value. Surely addition of skylights, rear windows, conversion to 85hp, etc. should have an affect too.

Finally I know one big one can be location. How far do I have to travel to get it or just to see it before even buying it although I am surprised by how many people appear to be buying airplanes off of Ebay these days with just a bunch of emailed pictures. Wee-uuu, sounds risky to me. That could be a whole thread in itself I bet.

In any case I have located AC for sale pretty much in those three catergories. My "want" is to get the best so that puts me in the first catergory. I realize from having restored AC before that like anything else you can put more into it than it could ever be worth on the open market and you can see them from time to time in the ads. First though I need to know what is realistic from a fair market value for such an AC and that's why I am asking for input on these three catergories.

Thanks,

Tim

[mhorowit]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

I'll jump in with ideas others have esposed to me:

$20,000 - take me into your trophy room and show me all the trophies you won showing this a/c

$18,000 - if it "shows you something"

$15,000 - in annual and flyable

Just what I've been hearing.

I think someone on the list (Ed Scott?) put together a booklet on what to look for.

Be warned that some owners believe their a/c has gone up in value when in fact it has gone down in value.

The use of Dacron vice linen and cotton means you'll see a/c covered back in the '70's. That means it's been 30 years since anyone looked at the steel frame for rust. If the fabric needs replacement, that's a $10,000 price tag. That will come as a suprise to the owner (of course, you can half that price by DIY, but don't tell the seller)

- Mike

[fearofpavement]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Restoring airplanes much like classic cars almost always requires more money than what the end product will be worth on the open market.

In my opinion there are two types of restorers, one is seeking the end result ie they want to have a real nice plane so they are willing to spend the time and money getting it that way. The other category is those that enjoy the process of restoration and once it is completed they may sell that one and start over with another derelict.

If you are not in the second category I think the most bang for the buck is to buy an already restored aircraft as it will probably cost less than if you bought a junker and (ahem, I mean an aircraft with a lot of potential) fixed it up yourself.

So to answer at least part of the question, on a recent restoration, one way to establish its value to you is to make a quick tally of what it would cost in parts and materials to put a junker, I mean.... into the condition this particular aircraft is in. Ie, a project plane for $7000 may sound like a great deal but if it's missing firewall forward your tally sheet will soon discover that one with all its parts intact at 16000 is probably a better deal by the time you buy an airworthy engine + core, a prop, bolts for the prop, an exhaust sytem, clamps, hoses, carb, air filter assembly and who knows how many other parts and pieces you'll have to scrounge up. What? it didn't come with a cowling? Anyway, if you're a mechanic you probably already know all this. So as to an aircraft's actual market value? I don't think there are too many BC-12D's that are worth more than the mid 20000 range and it would be easy to spend more than that fixing one up. So, do you want to fly or fix? That is the question. On average BC-12D's seem to sell in the mid to upper teens unless they have some extras. (like more horsepower or other mods such as an electrical system)

[VictorBravo]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

I'll jump in with ideas others have esposed to me:

$20,000 - take me into your trophy room and show me all the trophies you won showing this a/c

$18,000 - if it "shows you something"

$15,000 - in annual and flyable

Just what I've been hearing.

I think someone on the list (Ed Scott?) put together a booklet on what to look for.

Be warned that some owners believe their a/c has gone up in value when in fact it has gone down in value.

The use of Dacron vice linen and cotton means you'll see a/c covered back in the '70's. That means it's been 30 years since anyone looked at the steel frame for rust. If the fabric needs replacement, that's a $10,000 price tag. That will come as a suprise to the owner (of course, you can half that price by DIY, but don't tell the seller)

- Mike

See Mike... I TOLD you that you would become educated about this stuff fairly quickly And you have already started to assist others with theknowledge you have gained.

In my deepest molasses-soaked southern Alabama drawl... He a Good Ol' Boy now!

[mhorowit]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

In my deepest molasses-soaked southern Alabama drawl... He a Good Ol' Boy now!

That's Mississippi, please - Mike

[tim]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

ok now my two cents lol i got my tcraft for 8000 and it came with every thing but prop lol and he has more ....

[Jim Herpst]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Mike H those numbers all sound about right on. Tis true also that many owners are putting a bit more value on their Taylorcrafts because they believe Sport Pilot has pushed the prices skyward ...which it has but only to a degree. The reality is however when you go to actually sell one you find just what the market is really like ....REALITY hits home. Mike

Jim

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

One of the items that should be discussed on this forum is a abysmal state of the fleet, in general. Because the prices for T-Crafts have been low and remained stable... some folks are unwilling to invest in new parts, fix-up old parts, or add upgrades. Factory support has come and gone and been unrealiable, to good, to abandoned, to who knows? (our current state of Factory Affairs)

There are too many old TaylorCrafts left to the ravages of time and Mother Nature -- gathering birds nests, mice droppings, and hail damage, on the back tie-downs of shabby FBOs in Anytown, USA. But not in Anytown Canada, or Alaska. There, these birds are tools to be used and therefore treated rather better. Flown regularly, these are not pristine hangar queens and show ponies but hardy machines with just enough grizzle to make them handhewned honest.

Meaning, in the lower 48 (present company excluded in this rant because as enthusiasts, you are always good about without having to be reminded) Keep the paperwork clean on your Taylorcraft, the parts legal, and the machine flying. Be proud of your Bird and soon the world will discover what clever machines these are. The prices will rise and you'll be repaid your investment, and then some. I've seen it before -- it will happen again soon, given factory parts support, the LSA change, and of course the amazing flying qualities of the Taylorcraft.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Dan Mahalak]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

Honestly, I gotta tell you that scares me Ed. The last thing I want is the price of tcrafts going up and up.

The one deciding factor in my taylorcraftness was price..Not only purchase but operating cost as well. If you take a great thing, and put a sticker shock price on it, then parts costs skyrocket as well. Same with STC;s and insurance. Keep the costs low and the enjoyement up.....keeps my head in the air.

[dannys]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

My dad had a t-craft he flew to Alaska in 1953 and for the 50th anniversary of him flying up here i restored another plane and acquired his original n-number and used that on the restored craft.

bought plane for $9000

engine 85hp upgraded to o-200 $16000

labor cost $40000

fabric job plus corrosion repairs $10,000

new panel plus gps,radio, mode-c transponder, ndb etc $7000

total $82,000




I essentially have a brand new plane and it would have been much cheaper to just buy a decent one for $20,000 but we wanted it to be as close to new as possible.it is a beautiful plane but I think you can spend from 7 to 100 thousand it depends on what you want

[alwaysoar]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

I have to ask: $40,000.00 labor for what?

[jgerard]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

I never worry about the price of new Taylorcraft parts increasing because there really is not much of a market for them other than wear items like pulleys. People like Univair that manufacture airframe parts such as cowlings, struts, and exhaust do not base the price of parts against the current market value of the aircraft. It's strictly a cost + formula.

I also don't worry about the cost of STC's increasing because there is hardly any STC's specific ONLY to the Taylorcraft and I doubt there are ever going to be any new ones unless Bill B. gets one for his skylight. The majority of Tcraft owners are satisfied with a stock airplane and don't feel the need to add 25+STC'ed airframe mods at the next rebuild like most CUB pilots. The mods I would like to add to my plane(F19) is a set of Bushwheels, Skylight/observer doors, ski brace on gear legs, maybe the leading edge cuff, flaps? and hydraulic brakes. Out of all those mods only the skylight is STC'ed. Flaps would probably be a bitch to engineer and install plus add a lot of weight. The L.E. cuff with VG's might get me closer to what I want with less of a weight penalty. As you might guess I use my plane a bit differently than most Tcraft owners.

I love the fact that the Taylorcraft is such a huge bang for the buck! I believe it will always cost less than a Champ or Cub because thats just the way it is. I love my plane that cost me about 25% as much as my buddies Super Cubs(or less) and performs about 90% as good for about 40% less $/hr.

[dannys]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

i hired two mechanics to do the job
i am not mechanically inclined nor do I have the time

[tim]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

nope but it looks like u have the money to do it with lol jk but u really r missing out on the most fun like me i have the building bug lol i just cant afford it lol i cant just stop with my tcraft so many planes so little time to build them all

[VictorBravo]

Re: BC12D Market Value Discussion

I doubt there are ever going to be any new ones unless Bill B. gets one for his skylight.

Flaps would probably be a bitch to engineer and install plus add a lot of weight. The L.E. cuff with VG's might get me closer to what I want with less of a weight penalty. .

I'd like to get one for the skylight but I am still battling with it. I've had the FAA quit, I've had a DER that went silent on me, and more... but I'm still slugging it out

The flaps might not be as bad as you think. Since the later airplanes had flaps, you might be able to use that as the engineering basis and just recreate that feature on your airplane.

Also, the British Austers had flaps, and they work great, but neither of the Auster flap designs are the same as the American T-craft flaps. The later Austers (mks 6 and 7) used an external "Junkers" type flap which could be added to the existing Taylorcraft wing without enormous modification. My Auster had "split" flaps which worked REALLY well too, but would require new wing ribs.

A leading edge droop cuff might be a nice thing to play with, but if I recall the re-contoured LE cuff doesn't do a WHOLE lot on the later Cessna 172 wings. They probably do a little, but they don't turn the 172 into a STOL monster.

If you're feeling frisky and have a friendly FSDO, look into making a leading edge SLOT. There is a GREAT series of articles by Chris Heintz on "Anatomy of a STOL airplane" on www.zenithair.com that describes how well a slotted leading edge can work. Lift coefficients of 3+.

There is a way to make a very simple retractabe slot out of one thickness of sheet metal, rather than the complex sliding drawer rollers on a Helio or an F-86. It can retract onto the leading edge of the wing and not significantly alter the stock airfoil. If anyone is interested in this idea I'll be glad to discuss it.

For what it's worth, a simple re-shaping of the planform of the wingtips would make a noticeable difference at low speeds on a Taylorcraft too. The airplane was designed at a time when round wingtip "bows" were all the rage and not much was known about the effect of a properly shaped tip. Look at the "Discus" sailplane wingtips and you will see the direction you need to go.

Bill