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  • a pilots airplane

    Just sitting here on Sat morning considering going down and starting on putting new linings in the spare wheels I have. Looks like we are about to get the first rain of the wet season here in CA.
    Been thinking a lot lately about the Tcart wing and the stall characteristics and such. I think it is starting to dawn on me that at least one of the reasons Taylorcrafts are more reasonably priced and tend to be let go bad and just set on the line decaying is that it is really a pilots airplane when it comes to landing. Considering the large efficent wing that will float forever and the, dare I say abrupt, stall characteristics of the 23012 airfoil the possibility of muffing any given landing unless you are right on top of it is pretty high. I have about 3 or so different ways to put a Tcart on the ground with a certain amount of aplomb and to me they all require more than an average amount of skill/expertise to do well with this airplane.
    With a ClarkY airfoil or anything similar it's possible to set up a reasonable high-drag sink rate at the end of the flare and it will plop on over some range of speed/attitude. With the Tcart I have found that you can stall it down from say a foot up and it will plop on nicely, but it is hard to get it through the ground effect without ballooning up or dropping in from about 5 feet if you have any excessive speed. You can save it from the 5 foot drop in by hauling all the way back on the wheel just as it drops, but the timing is critical.
    I can also put it on by coming over the fence at a very low airspeed that puts the plane in a high drag configuration already when it encounters ground effect. This method is a continually changing flare that ends just at the ground and just when the wing quits. Of course that is the trick as the 23012 doesn't get into a wide range adjustable lift/drag mode like a ClarkY; it just pretty much glides and glides and then quits. Loosely you may say that it just doesn't mush any.
    The third way I know is to come down in a fast flare (always been about 60 indicated in the ones I've had) and about a foot or less off the deck and stabilized level, smoothly push the control column all the way to the firewall. Works great when the wind is really gusting pretty much straight down the runway. One pilot I know thinks that it's the way to put it on in a crosswind, but I have my misgivings about the period right after touchdown when you are slowing up with the tail still up in the air with the crosswind pushing on it.
    Summing up I think that the low wing loading with a very efficient airfoil makes it basically not have a low sink high drag mode that can be played with and milked down and that combined with an abrupt stall causes it to be a real pilots airplane that will sometimes embarass even the best pilots. (Pat on back for everyone at this point.)
    Anyone want to share any other landing tricks or variations I can add to my repertoire?
    DC

  • #2
    Re: a pilots airplane

    Hi Flyguy,
    I firmly agree with your dissertation. I bought my first T-Craft in 1964 (BC-12D) when I only had a few hundred hours, J-3s, 7ACs, and PA-12s mostly. Flying the T-Craft is when I learned to fly!. I flew it over 500 hours in 5 years over lots of long and short distances. Indiana to western Nebraska, Indiana to Pompano Beach, Fl; Indiana to Ft. Walton Beach, FL and many other places. Early on I had an old instructor that I used for help that had been an instructor for Rosco Turner in T-Crafts early in the CPT program so I got some good instruction. He taught me slips all the way to the ground, rudder pumping to slow down on the ground andh e taught me how to snap roll the T-Craft after I had taught myself loops and spins. I made a big mistake, I sold my T-Craft in 1969 after buying a Stinson to get 4 place capability which I still have. In 1990 I bought a Mooney M20C. My main comment is that the T-Craft is probably the best trainer that could prepare a future Mooney pilot!. Both have a wing that if you have an extra 5mph of unneeded airspeed on the approach you will float, float, and float. Both the Mooney and the T-Craft have a stall that does not give any pre-stall buffeting...the wing just quits. Both planes have excellent landing characteristics provided you fly it correctly!
    Now, some 42 years and near 5000 hours after my first T-Craft I bought one that had been damaged and am in process of restoring it. I am looking forward to getting it in the air again someday after I get over some of the hurdles with paperwork that I have and need help on and for some reason Forrest seems to dislike me even though I have the greatest respect for him.
    Larry Wheelock, N96179, N584LW, N79806, former owner N96927, A&P, IA

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: a pilots airplane

      Being farly new to the Taylorcraft 80 hr on mine, I like the sideslip aproch to a as close to runway as possible. and watch what airspeed, 60 pegged!
      I use it to get into short strips over obsticables.
      The Taylorcraft is floater off first Class, and like you fellows said, anything in way of excess speed and you you just eat runway.
      Last weekend I had a gust sending me flying again to about 50 ft after I tuch in with a light bounce.
      Power on and go around. but I also had the wing saving the day as it flyes in ground effect when I driffed off runway on a takeoff
      Like so many other things the Taylorcraft is on the good and bad.
      Defenetly a pilots airplane, piloting it all the way to tiedown!
      Len
      Love it!
      I loved airplane seens I was a kid.
      The T- craft # 1 aircraft for me.
      Foundation Member # 712

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: a pilots airplane

        It is really fine to have some hangar fllying on here with people sharing their experiences. I started flying my Tcart in the early 80's at at the last really small airport in the San Francisco bay area. It was like a 1930's airport in the middle of the crowded, overdeveloped, industrialized madness that was all around this little island of relaxed enjoyment. It was shut down a few years later, mostly because the landowner didn't want to deal with the guy leasing it. It is still bare land even now, shame. I'm now at a "small" airport out in the San Juaquin (sp?) valley, that has just had the runway extended to 4,000 ft so the developers can get their Kingairs in and out. There is one other Taildragger on the field, a pretty Chief that gets flown about once every 2 months. Nobody but the helicopter students (yuk) hang out at the field. Most everyone that comes into the field just grabs their gas and runs.
        Sure is nice to be able to get on here and talk about flying that isn't all business--just fun.
        Almost forgot to mention the other way I was originally taught to land a Tantem Tcart (B model?.) Get it as close to the ground as possible and just keep slowing it down until it plops on. Think they called it a stall down, but I have seen that name applied to the flare landing also.
        Darryl
        Last edited by flyguy; 11-05-2006, 09:37.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: a pilots airplane

          The way that I feel most comfortable landing, (some say showing off), with the BC65 is that I set up a steep approach angle in a 30 to 40 degree side slip at about 60 indicated. I start to slowly ease the slip angle about 50 feet up, while pulling the power back to give me a speed of 45 to 50. I still keep some slip almost to touchdown, make a wheel landing at about 40, and lightly drag the brakes to bring the speed down to where I plant the tail.
          At first I had my friend Jim in the plane with me to keep me from doing anything really stupid on approach, and after bouncing it once from about 6 feet up, everything just fell into place.
          This plane will make you feel REAL dumb if you don't fly it correctly, but when you do it right, you can look a 757 pilot straight in the eye after you land, and say "rookie".

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: a pilots airplane

            Fun thread!

            For fun and giggles I like to appoach at wheel landing speed and attitude and level off inches above the runway, then roll smartly but under control until one tire touches down, roll 300 feet or so then roll smartly so the other tire is the only one on the ground, roll another 300 feet then lift that tire off and go around. It is better to practice this on an old set of tires It is really using the same technique as wheel landing in a strong crosswind, but it is big fun.
            Best Regards,
            Mark Julicher

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: a pilots airplane

              before we land, we must take off. If global warming doesn't get in the way, I hope to put 94973 on skis this winter. I know wind and snow condition counts for everything, but can I clear a 50 foot obstacle with 2000 feet of runway on skis? I'd love to hear from the tribe members who've done it.

              JD

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: a pilots airplane

                The Taylorcraft is floater

                There's no such thing, you're just flying it too fast.

                side slip at about 60 indicated

                You SURELY don't trust your airspeed indicator in a slip, so you?

                Learn to fly the airplane and not your gauges, and the Tcart can get you into lots of places you'll never get out of! Took me a couple hundred hours - coming from a Champ - to realize that. I don't consider myself anything approaching a GOOD t-cart driver, but I can generally land her in a couple hundred feet, even with those WONDERFUL brakes.

                There are lots of tools available. If I can feel a 3" JERK on the yoke I'm too fast. If my ailerons work, I'm too fast. If it isn't taking quite a bit of power to keep her from falling out from under me, I'm too fast. I know, roughly, my deck angle at "just right." It just takes some training and practice to get the feel of it. And the realization that the least accurate airspeed sensor in the airplane is the one bolted in the dash.

                I also slip to a foot or so above the runway - for the visibility as much as the drag.

                can I clear a 50 foot obstacle with 2000 feet of runway on skis

                Depends on the snow and your airplane. My light 90HP Tcart will clear that 50' obstacle in maybe 400' in a few inches of powder, but I've had to make MANY (7 I believe is my record - with a couple cool-downs in there) runs at 3000'+ of obstacle-free runway in 4' of mushy springtime snow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: a pilots airplane

                  Did I read what the L2 had spoliers on it or is it a missunderstanding?
                  Spoilers may do the trick for good landings as the wing has an airfoil used on gliders, if my memory serves me right.
                  Some high speed homebuilts like the Mustang 2 has a belly airbrake, the Taylorcraft likes to speed down low so why not. I gues it would stune a few onlookers.
                  Just for the fun off it but?
                  If the wheather co operates I go practising my landings agin this week end.
                  When I get "realy good at landings" I am taking a 747 captain flying, just to let him try her out.
                  But Jim learned to fly on taildraggers,like Fleet Canuck, Lancastrinan, DC 3 and what else Trans Canada Airline had in the beging. I consider it a privilege to have him with me. Yes Jim is still a active pilot
                  foot note: The Lancastrian was a passanger version of the Lancaster bomber.
                  Len
                  I loved airplane seens I was a kid.
                  The T- craft # 1 aircraft for me.
                  Foundation Member # 712

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: a pilots airplane

                    Len, in the early days of WW2 Taylorcraft built the TG-6 training glider. It was built using the tandem fuselage with the engine replaced with a seat for the instructor. The glider had spoilers on the top of the wings which when deployed effectively cut six feet of wing off. They didn't affect the speed or attidude but did double the sink rate. The L-2M used those wings. Actually the wood tandem wings are the same on all wood winged tandems. Dick
                    TF #10

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: a pilots airplane

                      Dusty,
                      Yes, I do trust the ASI in a sideslip, but ONLY AFTER I did a full stall series INCLUDING stalls at different slip angles in BOTH directions at a safe altitude.
                      That being said, I will ALWAYS trust my "feel" of the plane over what the ASI says. This is critical at different density altitudes. Sabrina

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: a pilots airplane

                        Dusty, I will agree that if you want to land using the minimum space that dragging it in on the prop will work just fine, but if you are in that mode and 20 feet off the deck when the engine quits you are going to plow up a lot of dirt. LOL (If you know some way of saving the airplane in that situation please comment as that is one I would like to add to my repertoire.) I've drug Cessnas in by blowing the flaps with the airspeed needle hidden, but it made me nervous as a wh**e in church.
                        Darryl
                        Last edited by flyguy; 11-10-2006, 11:31.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: a pilots airplane

                          Does anyone have a picture off the spoilers used on the LM2 or the glider.
                          Drawings or principal sketch would also be nice.
                          It would be interesting to see them.
                          Len
                          I loved airplane seens I was a kid.
                          The T- craft # 1 aircraft for me.
                          Foundation Member # 712

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: a pilots airplane

                            Yes, I do trust the ASI in a sideslip

                            If you're flying anything like slow approaches I sincerely hope you LIVE to regret that decision, because it WILL bite you someday.

                            flyguy - About 99% of my flying is off-airport, and often in short and nasty stuff. My Tcart will generally get off shorter than it will land (did I ever mention how much I LOVE those damned brakes?). In some snow conditions on skis every MPH is probably worth 100'.

                            I don't know of a single engine that's given up on short final without any notice, so I'll take my chances there. If it did happen, my reaction would be the same as to any other nasty thing that could happen at low airspeed - get the nose down NOW. I had a VERY lightly frosted-up Tcart try to drop a wing over big trees at about 20' (indicating around 55). Turns out trying to cram the yoke through the dash IS more or less instinctive after telling myself that's the thing to do about a billion times. It kept flying and all worked out just fine.

                            94973: Tain't a T-cart, but I got off in this in about 150' somewhere near gross today, and could have made 50' in less than 500. Those are 31" Bushwheels for a size reference - maybe 8" of snow. Time to go to skis.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: a pilots airplane

                              Originally posted by lawheelock View Post
                              Hi Flyguy,
                              I firmly agree with your dissertation. I bought my first T-Craft in 1964 (BC-12D) when I only had a few hundred hours, J-3s, 7ACs, and PA-12s mostly. Flying the T-Craft is when I learned to fly!. I flew it over 500 hours in 5 years over lots of long and short distances. Indiana to western Nebraska, Indiana to Pompano Beach, Fl; Indiana to Ft. Walton Beach, FL and many other places. Early on I had an old instructor that I used for help that had been an instructor for Rosco Turner in T-Crafts early in the CPT program so I got some good instruction. He taught me slips all the way to the ground, rudder pumping to slow down on the ground andh e taught me how to snap roll the T-Craft after I had taught myself loops and spins. I made a big mistake, I sold my T-Craft in 1969 after buying a Stinson to get 4 place capability which I still have. In 1990 I bought a Mooney M20C. My main comment is that the T-Craft is probably the best trainer that could prepare a future Mooney pilot!. Both have a wing that if you have an extra 5mph of unneeded airspeed on the approach you will float, float, and float. Both the Mooney and the T-Craft have a stall that does not give any pre-stall buffeting...the wing just quits. Both planes have excellent landing characteristics provided you fly it correctly!
                              Now, some 42 years and near 5000 hours after my first T-Craft I bought one that had been damaged and am in process of restoring it. I am looking forward to getting it in the air again someday after I get over some of the hurdles with paperwork that I have and need help on and for some reason Forrest seems to dislike me even though I have the greatest respect for him.
                              Larry Wheelock, N96179, N584LW, N79806, former owner N96927, A&P, IA

                              Interesting story. Now about Forrest Barber Na dont worry if he LIKES YOU or not. REALLY... hes just like RUSH LIMBAUGH.. a fuzzzy ol fur ball .If he does not answer your e- mails worry not.... happens al the time .....he is busy with a BUNCH of crap all the time.... he is a good guy IF you get to know him...... dont worry be happy

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