NTSB accident stats

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I've never done it but I've heard the doors can function as a great piece of drag. An agressive slip followed by popping both doors could really get you down and stopped! Anyone ever try this?

Tom,
This is NOT a good idea! I have seen it done but some old paperwork on my 41 and some interesting things I found while working on it might give you some insite.
1) RH door is a little different than the left(not much, but obviously not a matched set- different base paint type things)
2) window frames of BOTH doors badly cracked
3) Hinge fasteners on passenger side oversize
4) The RH stab had been replaced at some time when I bought it
5) Newer tail wires on the passenger side
Are you getting a picture from this? There is nothing in the logs but I am BETTING someone opened the doors in flight (more than once) to do this and cracked the window frames and finally blew the right hand door off hitting the tail.
Only suspicions mind you and NOT done by the guy I bought it from. They are DOORS not speed brakes! If they open in flight, leave them alone. They will only open a couple of inches (if that). I wouldn't push them either way in flight.
Hank

[flyguy]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Or the passenger door came off from the front because the hardware was left off, missing, loose or? Wham bam, wrecked horizontal.
I have at one time pushed the door on my side open slightly in flight and it may serve a useful purpose in some kind of emergency, but I haven't done it in years--once I had confirmed the rumor I didn't figure it was of much sense to do it more than that one time.
It is good information to know that if you were to wear a parachute it would probably be very difficult to bail out with the door still attached. Means you would need a modified door attachment so you could dump the entire door instantly if you wanted to have the protection of a parachute that was really functional.
Bill, an accelerated stall in a C150 to the right can give you that kind of recovery if you let go as it breaks over the top to the left. I've done it many times, but you would really think that it would roll to the bottom. (up left aileron to keep it from rolling into the turn should make the lower wing stall first. Have to think about that. I've been able to make it spin out the bottom also, but I forget the details.
Darryl

[Mark Julicher]

Re: NTSB accident stats

quote
So with a nose-high, full right rudder, 3/4 left aileron slip, the left wing would be 30 degrees or so low and the nose 20 degrees right (of glidepath). When it stalls, the plane will roll to the right, which means it will roll from left-wing-down.... through wings-level... and then continue rolling right towards a spin. end quote


Right on Bill! And it is a BLAST to do this (at altitude). Start nice and slow, apply top rudder and smart back pressure and next thing you know you have done a quarter snap roll -- the fabled "stall over the top."

[Richard Boyer]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I thought snaps were a no no in a Tcraft?

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: NTSB accident stats

If the airplane stalls in a slip (top rudder) it will snap toward the top and the pilot has a chance to recover at the top before it starts to go over toward the held rudder or toward the other side. If the airplane stalls in a bottom rudder cross control configuration, the bottom wing will stall and the nose will drop abrubtly with little to no chance of recovery at altitudes under 500 feet agl.

Frank D

[flyguy]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Or you can do it with left rudder and some power and the wings held level with right aileron and it will spin almost over on it's back (at least it seems that way) and recover more or less pointing 180* the other way if you let off of everything and pull the power when it goes over.
Rich it really isn't a snap but a version of the "precision" spin entry done from a one wing down angle in the pevious case and a "normal" precision entry in the case of the one I discribed. They call it precision because sometimes if you try to spin say a 150 Aerobat by stomping the rudder just as it stalls that airplane (and others with gentle wings) will do about a turn and a half whip around spiral before doing an accelerated stall into a spin. It's fairly uncomfortable, kinda hard on the airplane, and pretty ugly to watch. With the rudder and power going left and the aileron going right already at the stall they spin much cleaner. I guess I should add that a snap is done at some speed above stall as an accelerated maneuver.
DC

[Guest]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I gotta ask a dumb question;

I recall an event of 20 or so years ago and what I recall is full left aileron, full right rudder and full back pressure, no power.

It was a gusty winter day and after many of the "oscillations" where the airplane went from nose high and toward the right to nose swings a little down and to the left that on the final swing to the right the left wing dropped and we were inverted.

Now, it has been many years and my memory is pretty good but imperfect. But the event I recall doesn't seem to correspond with what you guys expect to happen. Can anyone make sense of that? I am completely willing to admit I may recall it imperfectly. I am quite sure we were inverted!

Thanks, Dave.

[perryv1]

Re: NTSB accident stats

One thing I feel is a real problem is that alot of people are afrad of spins.Not that they have ever experienced one on there own.All they here is how dangerous thay are from stories they herd second hand.I Have Spun mine alot, Both Left And Right,They Arnt As Bad as you might think.Furthermore, I feel that now that I have experianced them (at a safe altitude) I would ,and have,recoverd much more efectively than if i had never been exposed to them. The places that I fly into can be tricky and with hard side slips stall/spin tendencys are Very real. I guess Its about Knowing Your airplane.Beacues every Rag airplane,Same type or not flys differant
PV

[flyguy]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Dave, opposite rudder and aileron will do it every time, either direction, but the reason (as I understand it) that the aerobatic entry is to the left is that you have both the left rudder and the engine torque/p-factor pulling to the left so you can crank in a lot more opposite aileron giving a more pronounced conflict between the opposing forces, which produces a much more positive and spectacular break when it does let go. To me it always feels like it is going over on it's back for the first split second when it breaks. It is a pretty wild entry and I bet it would look really good followed with some other maneuver on the recovery pull-up. Don't think I really want to try a hammerhead with a long-winged Tcart though. LOL. Maybe a loop would work good.

DC

[Richard Boyer]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I guess my slips are always to the stops but I maintain around 60mph (touch down around 48). I use the elevator to control airspeed. I have found that sometimes there is more rudder than elevator!

I guess I need to go up high and figure out what will be the planes reaction if I stall it in this config. I have done a few spins, but for some reason was never completely comfortable with it. There is always this nagging doubt in my head since my plane is a bit heavier than most (905 empty).

Another interesting manuever is a completely uncordinated turn. Keep the wings level and just add full rudder. You skid around in a turn really quick. It's kind of fun..... I don't recall being able to do that in a Citabria or Decathalon.

[Acroeric]

Re: NTSB accident stats

The turn you mention is lots of fun- I do it as well and do figure 8's etc. If I ever get to fly some airshows I plan to use that one in my routine.
I am finding that at full throttle and full rudder it really gets around good but requires lots of pitch control and opposite aileron to keep it flat. I have stalled mine in this config and have to say it was somewhat aggressive.

Randy Henderson uses this in his routine and calls it the Texas Turn.

[VictorBravo]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Another interesting manuever is a completely uncordinated turn. Keep the wings level and just add full rudder. You skid around in a turn really quick

That is a nother GREAT way to get some instant spin training! Full rudder and then trying to keep the wings level with opposite aileron...

[Richard Boyer]

Re: NTSB accident stats

COOL! I'll go higher first next time though........

[Forrest Barber]

Re: NTSB accident stats

For maximum decent over an obstruction at the end of the field, I use full rudder, usually right so I can see good. To the left if wind dictates, nose is up of course for slow speed, you kind of steer with the ailerons to maintain heading. Do this just above stall speed, if she stalls she will tend to roll level relax back pressure and catch her. Bill & others seem to have the technique correct. Try it at altitude OR have an good Instructor show you. BE CAREFUL of gusts. I was the guy that demonsrated the 375 ft in and out over the 50 ft obstacle for the F-19. Wished I had never done it....many get hurt trying it. 450 - 500 is more realistic... WE did it within the parameters set by the FAA, slight wind (5 K) , hard surface, good brakes, 59 degrees F and other stuff I forget.