NTSB accident stats

[Guest]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Tribe: the whole point of slipping is to go down without going fast. I almost always slip 94973 in at 55-60 indicated. It's the sweetest landing airplane in the world.

I use 55-60 too.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I contribute ANY stall spin accident today to the fact that spins have not been required for a pilot's certificate for many years. If they were required training, spins accidents would not happen as much IMO. I also feel the first 5 or so hours of training should be in a tailwheel so pilots know what a rudder actually does. Desensatized aircraft like Cessnas' don't help make a pilot better.

L-2's were the first released because of the L-2M. Pilots were pulling the spoilers in a base to final turn initializing a stall spin that was unrecoverable.

Mike

[flybikefarm]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I went to a flight instructor refresher course yesterday. When someone asked how to train new pilots to do cross wind landings better, one of the examinators there said the first 20 hours should be in a coventional airplane. I agree. Several people I know have told me that learning to fly a tailwheel aircraft taught them a lot more about pfacter , slips , and cross winds than all of there previous experiences. George

[flyguy]

Re: NTSB accident stats

It is good to hear that many people sucessfully do slips without carrying any "extra" airspeed. Most Tcart pilots are likely to be pretty close to the nominal approach path and not require dumping a bunch of energy on final so the technique I outlined is rarely required. It does work really well in many types of aircraft if you ever have to get rid of a lot of altitude quickly. I've never tried to do a stall (in a Tcart) while in a slip; I'll have to try it next time I'm up. From Daves experience it appears that it might be a lot of fun. I admit that my description of the amount of skill required to safely do a low airspeed slip may have been a bit overdone. LOL.
DC

[Tom G]

Re: NTSB accident stats

In all the years I've been flying my plane I have never come close to a stall during a slip. Of course, I've never slipped with the nose up. I see no reason at all to slip with the nose up and obviously its not the thing to do. The purpose of the slip is to create drag and loose altitude without gaining speed just like dumping 40 degrees of flaps in a 150 and pointing it at the numbers. The T-Craft doesnt have flaps so we slip it and it slips beautifully. The trick is simply to get the nose up after you come out of the slip so you don't gain airspeed and negate the reason you slipped it in the first place. When you do this the speed bleeds right off. If I'm missing something someone please let me know.

[Guest]

Re: NTSB accident stats

In all the years I've been flying my plane I have never come close to a stall during a slip. Of course, I've never slipped with the nose up. I see no reason at all to slip with the nose up and obviously its not the thing to do. The purpose of the slip is to create drag and loose altitude without gaining speed just like dumping 40 degrees of flaps in a 150 and pointing it at the numbers. The T-Craft doesnt have flaps so we slip it and it slips beautifully. The trick is simply to get the nose up after you come out of the slip so you don't gain airspeed and negate the reason you slipped it in the first place. When you do this the speed bleeds right off. If I'm missing something someone please let me know.

Hi Tom,

One very good reason to do nose up slips is to learn to recover from a slip to stall (or at least from a partial stall).

During a biannual you could be asked to do that, I know I have (ie. my story).

Slipping toward the runway in a near stall condition is not what I was describing it was a biannual excercise.

I guess the question may be is a 55-60 mph slip is a nose up slip and close to stall? I don't think it is, I 've been doing it for a long time so it seems quite normal to me. My plane stalls well below 40 normally. (Angle of attack bears out these differences too, but now I think I am going to go out next time and practice slips to stall to get the angle of attack better defined in my mind)

I think you are right, as you roll out of the slip the nose must come up to kill speed. Probably each of us has a technique we like to use for that. When I get very near the ground (a few feet) and want to kill speed I tend to raise slightly a moment before starting to roll out to kill speed first. Has worked well for me.

Dave

[Acroeric]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Recently I have been practicing very aggressive slips at altitude in preparation for my home airstrip (now 1/2 done) and have found my plane to be totally predictible. I have always slipped the T when landing- it just makes good sense to have enough altitude to get to the runway at any point in the pattern- the slip allows me to get rid of the fudge factor. I posted this a few weeks ago but I have found that in a full deflection slip (full rudder and almost full aileron) while holding constant altitude the rudder will stall before the wing. What happens is the rudder goes away for a second or two- the plane straightens up a bit then it gains effectiveness again. I can get it to stall while in a climbing slip but it is still very predictible.

Now- at the strip where I keep my plane I marked off the equivilent distance of my strip on my farm to simulate my 800 ft approach and 900 ft strip. I have been slipping aggressively and find I can really get it down from a 75 ft obstacle in about 300 ft safely- having to throttle up to keep it off until the 800 ft mark. If I am a little hot I maintain the slip in the flare until around 45-50 and it settles really good with a short ground roll. I will say that I feel I am doing absolute maximum performance landings like this and there is little room for error. I will actually have a good safety margin at my home airport due to the much longer approach over the trees (800 ft to the runway) I have. I am sure I am getting some cushion from ground effect in the slip at flare- I do not know what the airspeed is- I fly it by feel when that low and slow.

In practicing these landings I have become much more confident and encourage anyone to practice high before sneaking up to some really aggressive slips down low. I also routinely spin and do limited aerobatics and this too has allowed me to better understand what the plane is telling me.

[flyguy]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Eric,
Would you describe your flight controls, airspeed, ect. for a full deflection slip while maintaining altitude. That is, seems you would be carrying some power? Very interesting about the rudder "stall."
Darryl

[Jim Hartley]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Tom, Dave and Eric added some good answers to your question. I see this type off slipping as a maximum performance manuver as well...you lose altitude quickly,your pitch attitude is nose up,visibility is great,no extra speed to bleed off. I some times slip left then right so I can see the other direction. I practice power failure often and I use this technique often and it is safe and predictable. No tendency to stall at all. Full rudder,full aileron in slow flight and when slip is established...yoke full aft. You will pitch up to close to full stall attitude but gravity is bringing you down while both wings are flying solidly. That said...be wary of wind shear or any tendency to go from a slip to a SKID...This brings up the issue of accidents that kill and particularly those accidents that kill pilots in my state. Although weather is many times part of the snowball effect that adds to the tragedy it is usually...STALL/YAW/SPIN and heavily loaded. Pilots in Alaska and other areas use their aircraft like trucks...load em up and go! Many forget the increase in stall speed and fly the same way they do when they are light. unfortunately most training is done when our planes are less than gross weight and how many of us has gone out and done stall series at gross weight with passengers or full of moose meat? Not many I suspect! My self included.
Then you add weather,low fuel and other snow ball factors...yank the plane around in an uncoordinated fashion or yaw...most often to the inside(SKID) of a turn(box canyon... lets help that turn) inside wing stalls...and it is over...except for those left behind!

Jim

[Acroeric]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Yes- to get the rudder stall was carrying about 1200-1500 rpm. I was trying to get it to bite me up high so I did not experience it down low.

I've been flying a 160 HP Super Cub and I can tell you it WILL bite you with flaps in a hard slip. To me the Tcraft is totally predictible.

[Tom G]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I've never done it but I've heard the doors can function as a great piece of drag. An agressive slip followed by popping both doors could really get you down and stopped! Anyone ever try this?

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: NTSB accident stats

When I slip the airplane I lower the wing first (toward the wind if there is a cross wind) then I apply Top rudder. The top rudder is very important because if the airplane were to stall, it would rotate in the direction of rudder application. If there is bottom rudder and the airplane stalls at low altitude, it's bye-bye.

Frank D.
N43684

[VictorBravo]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I might be loooking at this the wrong way, but in my limited experience if the plane is being cross-control slipped and you stall it, it will roll toward the rudder (incipient spin), but since the OTHER wing was low the plane will roll level first, then continue towards a spin.

So with a nose-high, full right rudder, 3/4 left aileron slip, the left wing would be 30 degrees or so low and the nose 20 degrees right (of glidepath). When it stalls, the plane will roll to the right, which means it will roll from left-wing-down.... through wings-level... and then continue rolling right towards a spin.

The point is that if you simply let go of the controls at the point where all this rolling starts, the T-craft will just re-attach the air to the airplane and fly out of the stall in level flight. This is because letting go of the rudder (not even opposite rudder) allows the fin to yaw the airplane back straight (left in this example), which SPEEDS UP the right wing back into an un-stalled condition. With neither of the wing tips stalled, there is no more incipient spin. Letting go of the elevator also allows the fized stabilizer to impart a nose-down restorative force, so that both wings as a unit are not stalled either.

I have tried this occasionally, but never with the intent to write a NASA "flight test report". I do remember that letting go of the controls _at the right moment_ on a Taylorcraft in a slip-stall will restore the plane to level flight by itself.

Sincer there are people here with a lot more T-craft time than me, perhaps someone else has tried this and can verify it???

[dedrekon]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I have tried using the doors to slow it down..........and while it does work, it's far too much effort. The wind stream pressure at 60mph is very strong. You can turn pretty effectively with the doors though.....maybe a good thing to practice in case you lose rudder sometime.

The T is a little like a Porsche 911. They're both incredible handling machines. The T will slip better than anything I've ever flown. The Porsche is the best cornering vehicle I've ever driven, but when the Porsche lets go, it is GONE. Same with the T. Sure, if you have 50 feet to recover you can get it back, but if you have 50 feet, you don't need to slip that aggressively (although it really DOES give a little stall warning, if you're really in tune with it).

My short field technique (over an obstacle) is to slip HARD to the ground and flare just as you come out of the slip. If you time it right, you'll just kinda flop on to the ground with virtually no forward momentum. I have no idea what the airspeed is in this maneuver, I never look at it.....I doubt it's reliable in a slip anyway. As Jason has illustrated with his personal experiences, wind does matter. You can fly the T very solidly on the edge of a stall, but on a gusty day, I build in an appropriate margin of error.

v

[Jim Hartley]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I might be loooking at this the wrong way, but in my limited experience if the plane is being cross-control slipped and you stall it, it will roll toward the rudder (incipient spin), but since the OTHER wing was low the plane will roll level first, then continue towards a spin.

So with a nose-high, full right rudder, 3/4 left aileron slip, the left wing would be 30 degrees or so low and the nose 20 degrees right (of glidepath). When it stalls, the plane will roll to the right, which means it will roll from left-wing-down.... through wings-level... and then continue rolling right towards a spin.

The point is that if you simply let go of the controls at the point where all this rolling starts, the T-craft will just re-attach the air to the airplane and fly out of the stall in level flight. This is because letting go of the rudder (not even opposite rudder) allows the fin to yaw the airplane back straight (left in this example), which SPEEDS UP the right wing back into an un-stalled condition. With neither of the wing tips stalled, there is no more incipient spin. Letting go of the elevator also allows the fized stabilizer to impart a nose-down restorative force, so that both wings as a unit are not stalled either.

I have tried this occasionally, but never with the intent to write a NASA "flight test report". I do remember that letting go of the controls _at the right moment_ on a Taylorcraft in a slip-stall will restore the plane to level flight by itself.

Sincer there are people here with a lot more T-craft time than me, perhaps someone else has tried this and can verify it???

An unloaded wing can not stall. it is our ham fists that cause it...and as you said Bill... let go of the controls! The air craft will align with the relative wind and resume normal flight provided it is trimmed properly and it is engineered right. If things are out of control momentarily let go of the controls and unload the wing...

In a skid you stall the low wing first an go into a spin a hurry. In a slip the high wing is the first to go...giving you time to contemplate??? Buy some time???

Jim