I Want Facts

[1938BF50]

What are the (10) most crucial /sought after Taylorcraft parts that need to be produced to keep our planes safely flying?

What process do I have to go thru to get certified to make these?

I want definitive answers from KNOWLEDGEABLE individuals.

[Winston L.]

Re: I Want Facts

First you need data such as drawings and processes. You will need tooling and sometimes drawings for the tooling. Then you need a quality system set up in your facility under FAR part 23 to manufacture the parts. At that time you can contact your local M.I.D.O and get a primary inspector assigned to you. I think you would be seeking a PMA. You would need a D.E.R. to help through the whole process. That is just the basics, there is alot of details involved in all of this.

Winston L.

[crispy critter]

Re: I Want Facts

If it would be possible to get a group of people together to make the parts would it be doable.. I.E. if a few big wigs put up big dollars or a several people put up what they could afford and buy the rights(if they come available for sell)then a few people with the skills each took a single part and the tooling to make that part....could this be done? Or maybe as a better example,Jon Doe is really good at sheet metal work so he could build cowls,nose bowls,boot cowls,etc. John Smith is good at welding and making jigs so he could do struts,landing gears,tail surfaces, and maybe even fuslage rebuilds & gear rebuilds as well as right side brake kits.
Harry had been talking about contracting some of the manufaturing out to other places,maybe to get approvals easier would it be possible for one person(with the financial help of several)to get approval to build the parts and then contract them out some of us as described above so that everyone doesn't have to fight with the Feds for approval.Then all parts will go through the main hub with the approvals for inspection,approvals,and shipping.
This is just an idea that could make sense and work out good if it can be done legally.No one will get rich doing it but they should make a decent living and doing it this way will help keep parts much cheaper.
After everything is up and running smoothly and the back log of parts has been caught up then the main hub with the approvals can act as the factory and,ONE AT A TIME,start assembling a complete airplane for sell.Or to keep the liability down we could sell kits under the 51% rule.
Just a thought.

[Winston L.]

Re: I Want Facts

The big thing is organization. The FAA would want to inspect a facility. You can have vendors but they are an expansion of your quality system and will be subject to inspections, audits and so on. The big thing is getting them to feel warm and fuzzy about what you are doing. All of your processes will be scrutinized by them. In the end it is up to your primary inspector whether you get approved or not. I do like the kit thing though it saves alot of headaches.

Winston

[crispy critter]

Re: I Want Facts

I just think if some of us can get together then we can make it happen. I know it won't be something that everyone can or will want to invest in but it's still something to talk about and try to put it together. I guess first thing we would need to do would be to organize a group that is interested and/or see if the type certificates,claim rights,left over parts,and tooling will even be for sell and if so at an affordable price.Then try to talk with the FAA directly and explain what we have in mind and maybe even work out a plan with them that will make them happy to help us before we ever write any checks or sign any paperwork.This might make things much easier for the PMA's,the FAA, and the people trying to build the parts.

[Grant S. Bailey]

Re: I Want Facts

I also think the kitplane thing is a good idea. Perhaps someone could make a go of it selling kits. I think there would also be some demand. There are a lot of us doing restorations out there. I tend to think that building a plane from new parts could be quicker in many cases than a ground up restoration. I have spent a LOT of time stripping, cleaning, repairing, securing parts, etc. I think I would much prefer assembling a plane from new parts provided in a kit. Would the performance of a T-Craft not be much better than a Kitfox, Rans, Merlin, or other equivalents out there? Also there could be many different engine options with a kit. Hopefully there is an enterprising individual or group with some business sense and honesty that can pick up the pieces!

[robbie]

Re: I Want Facts

got to agree with the kit planes. Use the 4 inch wider body, don't worry about how you going to get the stc for the skylite,ect.
The problem still is there for us with cert. t-crafts and parts.
Don't know what's the answer is, but Harry just didn't have the money behind him to do what he was trying to do. Trying to come out with planes and get parts approved, was just to much, with no money.
If anyone saw the building he was using in Brownsville it was way larger than was needed.
If I recall, last March when I visited the factory, Harry made a statement to me saying "The city of Brownsville is giving me this building rent free for two years".
So I guess that why he hasn't paid the city any money. Must of been a miss understanding. :
I would like to see some one like aircraft spruce thats got money and production experence behind they get the tooling and ect. and just make parts for us.

[crispy critter]

Re: I Want Facts

Guys,
I too think the kits are a good idea but before one can build kits they also have to have the tooling and man power to make the parts in the kit.....this only brings us back to the part where all we would need is FAA approval to provide parts for all the certified birds and then we could sell kits and/or maybe a few complete airplanes. I know it's not as easy as I'm trying to make it sound but I'm just trying to throw a few ideas out there to get some of us thinking about it. Ya never know what could happen if a few of us could put our heads together and our skills to work while keeping the building costs and selling prices low. I'm sure aircraft spruce,wag aero,or someone could do it but by the time they single handedly got all the approvals then the parts would be far above and beyond our affordable reach.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: I Want Facts

If you had 10 different people building 10 different parts in 10 different location would require 10 different manufacturing locations with 10 different quality control manuals dealing with multiple MIDO facilities that don't operate as a cohesive unit as they should. If you are confused and sounds overwhelming, good because it is 10 times worse than that to jump through all the hurdles to make the parts. You can figure a $100 part will cost $10,000 to build the first one under PMA. Then there is no garuntee you would ever sell enough to recover your investment.

As long as Harry and the factory are not making parts, stick to Part 21.303 owner produced parts. Then, you could have 10 different people building 10 different parts in 10 different locations without the headache. I speak from experience as owner of Falcon Propellers, holding 26 Type Certificates, for 100's of applications, going on 8 years trying to gain Production Certificate status and signing our own 8130-3 tags.

10 most critical parts are that are not already being reproduced:

1. lower cowling long and short
2. landing gear
3. cowling spines
4. trim pulleys front and rear
5. shinn brake shoes
6. shinn adjustment studs
7. shinn shoe return springs
8. BAFFLING
9. tip bow
10. spotwelded tip skin

Mike

[barnstmr]

Re: I Want Facts

If you want to sell parts and play straight with the FAA requirements, you have to have a PMA certificate hanging on the wall. And then for each part number you sell, you have to have an approved piece of paper called a PMA supplement, listing your part number as an approved replacement part.

To get your PMA certificate, you must demonstrate that you have an acceptable fabrication and inspection system. This typically entails having a PMA procedures manual, then having the FAA come to your shop for a facilities inspection. The FAA will audit your manual and verify that you have the equipment, personnel, and process in place to ensure repeatibility for quality parts production. Many details are involved, right down to the way part numbers are marked and how parts are packaged, etc. This process can take many months or even longer than a year, unless you have everything in order from the start. I have assisted several small companies get up and running with as a PMA holder. You must be prepared and financially set to go at least a year to get through the process before you can expect to sell any parts.

Typically it is best to initiate your first PMA project with a non-complex, simple part. Say for example... a wing root fairing. You must put together a certification data package for that part... and a separate data package to have your PMA manual, quality system, and facility certified. This is much like the ISO 9000 process.

The data package for your part should have the following documentation...
1) have acceptable production drawings
2) have a system to obtain and track material certification paperwork as a part of your recordkeeping
3) subject first article parts to an official FAA conformity inspection - parts must meet the drawing to a tee.
4) subject the parts to testing if necessary to show compliance to airworthiness regulations
5) subject the parts to analysis if necessary to show compliance
6) show evidence of the replacement part eligibility - either by fit check or by parts catalog copies
7) Compliance summary report
8) Instructions for continued airworthiness... and more.

This sort of thing can be overwhelming. Thats where DERs come in. You need someone who understand all of the certification aspects. Companies have had success in developing their PMA authorization around another core part of business. Putting all your eggs in the PMA basket is not wise for a start-up. Companies that have hired me to prepare all of this data have been successful with PMAs.... but they would have starved before obtaining their PMA if there wasn't some other income source during the first year or more. The engineering and FAA interface services by a DER could cost $15K (+/- $5K) for the initial PMA if it is a simple part. To get follow-up PMA approvals via PMA supplement would cost between $5K and $15K each time, depending on the complexity of the part.

So... if you are talking about $110 bleed air clamps for Beech King Air, where the profit margin is huge.... you might be able to amortize your certification investment over a year or two. But for a $15 wing fairing for a Tcraft.... you'd have to sell a lot of parts to break even. So to sum up... there's potential for success if the proper market research is done up front, if your company can afford to go without profit for a couple of years, and if you have the initial $25K or so initial investment money to put in. Once up and rolling... with wise decisions, a mom & pop shop can make a go of it with PMAs. But this is rare.

Companies who get rich on PMA parts sales... generally deal in the big aircraft parts.

[1938BF50]

Re: I Want Facts

Thank you all for the great info....and keep it flowing!

I have been in manufacturing for over 25 years now. As a Manufacturing Engineer I have helped several employers struggle to gain various QC merits (Ford Q1, Ford Q101, ISO's, Six Sigma, etc.....I am very familiar with implementation, audit, and continuous improvement of the various Quality systems. Unfortunately, what I am not good at is dealing with Bureaucracy. Just the registration of NC20407 was nearly enough to test my limits. My point being, as stated in several of the posts, we as individuals each harbor areas of expertise that can contribute to the whole.

With research and a reasonable comfort level, I would commit to the actual manufacturing of select parts as a sub-contractor. I was surprised to see that lift struts were not mentioned as critical parts. Honestly, I could build lift struts and welded landing gear assemblies in my sleep. Hope this comes off as confidence and not bragging! I design, validate, debug, and improve complex welding fixtures every day. A landing gear fixture and the associated weld sequencing is a cake walk. I was not alive in 1938 when NC20407 was built, but, I am very familiar with the sometimes barbaric manufacturing methods that were commonplace to these products and that era. I guess, what I am trying to say is this IS NOT rocket science(no offense to anyone) it is just fairly simple manufacturing with a VERY complex audit trail.

What's next?

[Winston L.]

Re: I Want Facts

This is a list of the most common orders we received in La Grange.

complete cowlings
landing gear
spars and all other wing parts
struts
tail brace and drag wires
bungee cord covers
pulleys
cables
instrument panels
engine baffeling

We always repaired the tapered axle gear because the axles weren't available.
There was also lots of requests for hydraulic brake conversion kits.

Winston

[crispy critter]

Re: I Want Facts

Don't forget about right side brake kits.

[Winston L.]

Re: I Want Facts

That probably would be a hot item.

Winston

[crispy critter]

Re: I Want Facts

I would buy 2 sets. One for Crispy and keep a spare set on the shelf for the next t-craft that passes through my shop.