What were they thinking?

[crispy critter]

Re: What were they thinking?

Come on up and I show you from both inside and outside the airplane.lol. I would like to put together some videos of some aerobatics if I can find a camara man brave enough to ride through them with me.lol

[alwaysoar]

Re: What were they thinking?

Kevin, I don't think I'll be going to KY any time soon but thanks for the invite. I've done a fair amount of acro and I'm only taking issue with coming to a complete stop. The timing has to be perfect or you're going to tailslide and even with full power I can't see you're going to have to have enough power to pivot around. I'll give it a try in old 95645.
Ed

[Forrest Barber]

Re: What were they thinking?

Give it a try it works!! Join the IAC and compete a bit, the hammerhead is one of the least understood by the Judges. I will dig out the rule book and re print it for all of you. The Pitts is a lot easier to hammer than the clipped Tcraft; but I used to get 90-91 % to win in Sportsman & Intermediate. Somebody previous said the rudder does not work if the ship stops, it still works with the prop blast over her.

[alwaysoar]

Re: What were they thinking?

Well, that's the thing, isn't it; you've got to have an airplane capable of hanging on the prop. None of the clunkers I've flown could do that. Remember also this thread began with a discussion of the NY accident and whether or not that plane was capable of a hammerhead to get out of the "Box canyon" it found itself in over the East river.

[Robert Lees]

Re: What were they thinking?

I think the point is that you do not actually stop the aircraft (unless it is something like an Extra 300).

On low-energy aircraft, the "pivot" starts at a low airspeed, but not at zero.

[alwaysoar]

Re: What were they thinking?

Well, that's my point. I don't know what Kevin flies, Forrest is talking about a Pitts. A clipped T can't do it, he says. At my point in life, age and flying a '65 T, it's all academic because I ain't gonna be fooling around no more!

Ed@BTV VT
TF 527

[crispy critter]

Re: What were they thinking?

I've flown a clipped wing T-craft a little bit and IMHO the stock T-craft will do a better hammer head then a clipped wing. I fly a little bit of everything but for acro I have a Starduster II.I have in the past owned a few different aerobatic airplanes ranging from a clipped win cub(with clipped t-craft wings on it),pitts,smith mini,citabria,rv-4,eaa biplane,etc. The 2 that were the most fun were the Clipped Cub and an old Waco(owned by family). If you want to do nice big loops,barrel rolls,gentle easy spins,and hammerheads without spending a small fortune on something to do them in then a 1948 ragwing cessna 170 is one of the easied birds to do them in as long as you know what you are doing and don't over stress it. It has a straight semi-semetrical wing with very little drag and a very large rudder. I had a few people in the past tel me that I ragwing 170 wouldn't do a perfect hammerhead or a Cuban 8 but they didn't say much when I went up and proved them wrong. With the straight wing and that big ass rudder she would really do some nice hammer heads if you timed it right.
I must add that it is smarter and safer to do them in something made for acro just in case you do screw up.I am not trying to tell anyone to run out and buy an old ragwing 170 to do acro in,I'm just conversing from experience.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: What were they thinking?

I have no idea where I said you have to hang on the prop, IT is a matter of timing, I do a great hammerhead with the 65 HP, full winged Tcraft, in fact I have to go to almost full input of opposite aileron, that wing is sort of sliding back and I reduce the power at the proper time to get her to "hammer" correctly.
I do a better one in the clipped ship and the Pitts will hammer beyond 180 degrees. 270 , 360, & even 540 before the recovery.
As to the crash in NY , at first glance I thought it was suicide....... really.

We now have more facts and it MAY come out that they tried a " Wing-Over" known as a "1/2 Lazy-Eight" to some folks ( FAA tests). and spun out of it, perhaps only a partial turn and then flew out into the building upon recovery.

[VictorBravo]

Re: What were they thinking?

I did hammerhead stalls in sailplanes many times, hanging on nothing.

Granted the timing was a bit more critical, you had to kick the rudder just before the plane stopped in mid-air to start it swinging, and throw in a little opposite aileron to keep it on-axis. The ship would start to fall and the drag of the airflow on the broadside of the fin would swing the nose down with the authority of... a hammer blow.

But my point is that even a non-aerobatic airplane, flown by a decidedly amateur acro pilot such as myself, will, do a passable hammerhead maneuver without the benefit of a propeller or thrust.

For anyone who has not flown maneuvers like this in gliders, it is quite an experience. The plane comes to a complete stop, no noise at all, and the entire universe just hangs there in the balance for a second. If you are doing a hammerhead, or a "whip stall" (a vertical stall where the nose pitches down instead of to the side), you get this huge rush of adrenaline as you are thrown forward or sideways in the middle of the sky. I recommend that anyone looking for a safe and unique thrill takes a ride in a sailplane to do this maneuver.

And as for professional aerobatic endorsements... I have the lowest altitude FAA acro waiver of them all! The FAA has authorized me to be pilot in command of an aerobatic aircraft at three feet AGL... chained to the tiedown cable!

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: What were they thinking?

Tribe;
No matter if they tried a wing-over (or hammer-head turn if you prefer) and failed... my point, is to not wait until an emergency... like I'm assuming the NYCity Crew found themselves. Go out and try wing-overs along a road-intersection. Have plenty of alititude (2500 ft AGL atleast), do it several times, as the first couple of times can be quite disorienting. Get it to the point of some consistancy. Then remember the numbers, loss of altitiude, displacement along the highway to both the right and left turns... and how far past the intersecting road you went too, etc... then double those numbers... allowing for an oh-sh*t factor and adrenile induced sloppiness. Then you've got safety and performance in tight spots.

Practice it every year as a refresher. Practice more than just the standard mandatory manuvers, practice it with the plane a max gross, and with just you a bit of gas... practice wing-overs. Practice it full power AND engine out... Even if you never think it'll happen to you and even if you're afraid of acro... practice it, all the same.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Forrest Barber]

Re: What were they thinking?

Ah Bill how easy we forget, of course the sailplane will do a hammerhead. I am a tow pilot, to do that I had to fly the sailplanes a bit, I have twelve tows, two practice line cuts. YES I looped her and did wing overs, not real hammers but yes I ran out of airspeed and ideas simultaneously and sort of fell sideways a bit till the air stated to flow again.
Will have to get back to that life someday.
YES we need to practice stuff, I have a fellow who comes here with a Mountain flying course for Bush Pilots. He & I worked on the blind canyon turn around, it is fun, do it in time to save yourself Altimeter, thermometer, stop watch, recorder, hmmmmmm sounds like a test pilot thing ; IT IS!

[VictorBravo]

Re: What were they thinking?

Will have to get back to that life someday.

I'll only warn you once... it's addictive!

Laid my whole life to waste, those sailplanes, I can't fly in any airplane anywhere at any time without having "soaring" come oozing out of my pores.

But it was a fair bargain... soaring took over my life and won't leave it alone even to this day, but soaring saved my life on many occasions even when I wasn't flying a glider!

OK, off to the airport to be an amateur airplane mechanic once again......

[dedrekon]

Re: What were they thinking?

Kevin,
What Waco were you flying? I have some time in a UPF7 and it was an absolute blast to fly....a very honest airplane that will do whatever you want IF your energy management is on the numbers. I would call it "stately" in it's performance with only 220hp and TONS of drag.
I always stress ENERGY MANAGEMENT to new TCrafters. Short landings, energy management....tight turns, energy management.....climb performance, energy management (also exhale and start tossing stuff out the doors). Of course, learning how to totally manage that energy takes lots and lots of practice.
I do find it hard to imagine flying so deep into a canyon that you can't just do a slow tight turn to exit (in a Taylorcraft). They'll turn on a dime. That said, I agree practicing maximum performance 180's (or practicing any maneuver) is a very good idea.

regards,
V