News from the Factory III

[M Towsley]

Re: News from the Factory III

Ed,

I should have added that they knew Forrest as well, and apparently he had tried the same. I would hope he had a little more influence. Forrest would have to comment on this as it is second-hand info. And, I would like to see you get 50 interested Taylorcraft people together for the one common cause. I have no clue where you are getting 500, unless you are the pied-piper of Taylorcraft owners. Please don't banter about odd numbers you cannot back up. There are at least six Taylorcraft owners in my area alone that I can assure you feel the same way. This is not counting the Luscombe owners, etc. who have been burned by cheaply made parts from Univair, just ask them about exhaust muffs for one example. If Univair thought it was possible to make a buck years before Taylorcraft 2000, or whatever Harry called it, they would have done it. Being the bastard step-children of aircraft does not help our cause. I visit other websites and observe how cohesive these owners groups are. I don't see that here. I see a small core group of die-hard Taylorcrafters asking, and an even smaller group anwering questions. For some unknown reason I think getting 500 people together as a cohesive unit is impossible. (Unless your a politician and lie to them). I too believe it doesn't hurt to ask, I did. At least I took the initiative but all it got me was........nothing. You have my vote, and apparently you have a benefit in living close by. Let Univair know we want good quality parts at semi-reasonable prices. And, let them know they may want to advertise. I asked for the Taylorcraft list of parts, and all I received was a new catalog which, by the way, is one of the most unwieldy, difficult to use catalogs in the business. Now you are just 499 unified Taylorcraft owners away..............

[Jim Herpst]

Re: News from the Factory III

If I were a very highly skilled Taylorcraft test/aerobatic pilot and Foundation administrator, one of the first things on my agenda would be to assemble a list of potential landing gear fabricators, cowling hammerers, strut welders, wing tank solderers, etc. who are known to have the talent to assist Taylorcraft owners in producing LEGAL replacement parts.

While we're all having fun playing verbal chess about the latest PT Barnum Taylorcraft factory soap opera, airplanes would be getting put back in the air, more Taylorcrafts would be flying again, and we would become a more independent group of owner/enthusiasts.[/QUOTE]

Bill I am with you. Its all right there. WE just need some real leadership on this issue. In the meantime back to the Carlson Baby Ace.......

[Forrest Barber]

Re: News from the Factory III

The leadership is in place. Univair & Wag-Aero (who bought out Safe-Air) are producing genuine PMA'd Taylorcraft Parts. They are moving very cautiously since there is a Type Certificate and " factory" in place to build parts and support the Type Certificate. However you are finding out that the right to produce parts is not automatic , there has to be many things in place; APIS ( Approved Parts Inspection System) for one. OR inside the factory they can use the PMA system. None of this seemed to be set up.
I have printed up the information that I have sent to all entities and posted it twice on this forumn. THEY tell me that the prices will be high and a lot of owners do not want to pay, instead they try to "fabricate" or "repair" the item.... I have been selling a lot parts here recently, they are from a collection over the years of "genuine" Taylorcraft Parts...
Lets see what happens down in Brownsville. The drawings, drawing list, and fixtures are the important part. the contact person is Bill Reed at Wag-Aero , Univair ? somebody refresh me on who is the person there?

[dmcneil]

Re: News from the Factory III

Ed,
the Luscombe owners, etc. who have been burned by cheaply made parts from Univair, just ask them about exhaust muffs for one example.

Marty,

This is getting way off the track of Taylorcraft parts but I thought this needed some explanation...

I am a Luscombe owner and I regularly talk to many other Luscombe owners. The Univair heat muffs are not a, "Cheaply made part". They are exact duplicates of the original Luscombe muff. The problems with heat muff failure (cracking) were primarily due to the introduction of a "New and improved" exhaust header third party sourced by the now defunct Luscombe Foundation. They were made of stainless steel. The original Luscombe exhausts were mild steel. The theory was that the stainless steel exhausts and the soft aluminum heater muffs had much different heat transfer coeficients which lead to the cracking. I have the original mild steel exhausts on my Luscombe and the Univair heat muff has been trouble free for the last 500 hours.

My own experience with Univair and with Steve and Jim Dyer has been much different than yours. I have never gotten a Univair part that I thought was badly or cheaply made. A company doesn't achieve a sixty year track record in the FAA/PMA parts business by routinely selling bad parts. Just my own experience and opinion, of course.

Dan

[N96337]

Re: News from the Factory III

Mike, I bought alot of parts from Univair for a Stinson that I restored/rebuilt and sent more than 50% of them back for lack of quality! Univair was very very uncooperative on the phone when I had a quality issue, and in one instance I was told that they didn't care if it didn't fit right, I must have a half dozen "freak" airplanes (this was for a rudder spar). I would hope to GOD that we could find someone better than that to repro parts..
Yes, the PMA process is long and drawn out...and very expensive.... and I'm sure it would be even more drawn out with the agitation that will most likely be coming from previous owners of the factory/TC's.... I'll just be building my own parts.... there really isn't anything on the Tcraft that's "magic" to build... but I realize that's not an option for some....
It's going to be interesting to watch the saga unfold....
JH

[Forrest Barber]

Re: News from the Factory III

There are many tales in the naked city! Of course many folks have good and bad to say about a lot of suppliers. That may be why I only do "you pick it out and carry it away from right here"..... I have had good luck with most suppliers in the past. About Exhaust systems, I have always advised our members to buy yhe whole system from a single source, then the exhaust
pipe(s) fit the heat muff. Jumping Branch, Aero Fabricators, Dawley or any others...
Then we find that the "improved" SS systems do not fit real well, sometimes the flanges are too thick, sometimes the "blowproof" gaskets are too thick. Oh whoa is the poor owner , non-mechanic who thinks they just have to buy something and bolt it on!! THAT is the reason to use a mechanic who knows what he doing! I do indeed want to find a reliable source for all aprts and have said so in the past. You now see some of the problems we have encountered in the past from factory owners who did not have a
clue about peroper certification. There has been a lot of shoddy work out there by owners that gets passed on to the next owner. THEN we have the owners who make modifications, finish them completely, THEN try to get "approval" . Approval has to come first before, cutting, welding, gluing, etc...

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: News from the Factory III

Marty, Forrest, and Tribe.
Marty -- you asked where I got the number 500? I don't know, I thought that was how many registered AOPA, EAA, and Taylorcraft.Org owners there were but mostly it was a number I took from memory. I may be off by some. The number matters only when we count up who's interested and go talk to somebody. Then we'll have something like a petition sign-up. But, this is in the future.

Forrest -- I'll gladly do whatever helps the cause. For me it's not ANYTHING BUT FUN and you know I need lots and lots of parts. This however is in the future too.

Tribe -- The prices for Taylors are moving north. The prices of parts will too. It is a market pressure thing. As canabilization of old wrecks gets used up for rebuilds and normal wear and tear(remember what happened to Cubs?)... as the FAA focuses more attention on all old birds (have you seen what they've done to Luscombes and Bellancas recently)... as the factory does whatever the factory is eventually going to do(die, retreat, sell off, merge with Boeing)... we must support a supply chain hero... or steal parts from one another (see story of L2 cowling disappearing on the discussion board)... or make our own. Since I have no ability to make parts, I suppose I'll have to become a thief. You can see why I'd rather have someone else make a good part for me. Then we must also remember we don't determine what is a fair price the market does. In this way, it is a bit like gentry-fication of old neighborhoods. You pay a price for letting the birds die, you pay the going price for keeping it going... or you sell it to some one who will and take the family to Disneyland. Not everyone can have it every way. Solid good new parts, certified tested old parts, what we need and when we need it... will still be cheaper than owning a Bonanza.
With regards;
Ed O'Brien

[M Towsley]

Re: News from the Factory III

Dan,

All I can do is repeat what I have personally heard. We have two die hard Luscombe owners at our airport, and the Luscombe fly-in just 45 minutes away every year. In fact, one of the things one of them tried to buy at an auction yesterday was a stock Luscombe heat muff. Stout item, I have to admit. My personal experience was seeing one of these gentleman trying to repair a Univair item. It was like trying to repair a piece of metal that was maybe the thickness of two soda cans. You had good luck with your piece, maybe you received the one that was four soda cans thick, I don't know. I deal in personal observations and experience from others. Now I can ad your good luck with Univair. Thanks for your observation, but it does not change my opinion, yet, of Univair. Someday, I hope I can.

[OldBits]

Re: News from the Factory III-parts production

Classic Aero has been providing some brake items to Taylorcraft owners for several years, and has an FAA-PMA affiliate authority that could make needed parts for Taylorcraft airplanes IF supplied with data. Forest and others in the groups appear to have some data available, and we would be happy to provide the intermediary support if it makes economic sense for all of the parties.

Classic Aero regularly does fabrications for owners and can do 337's for return to service of the bits produced One-OFF, but so can most local shops- It is just VERY expensive (often cost prohibitive) to do so.

All of the "classics" have fallen into disrepair from years of service, and the cost of producing replacement parts requires a big outlay for FAA-PMA certification with an unknown, (usually very small) marketplace.

Few are willing to undertake the fabrication of say wing struts, where there is material cost of $800, fittings of $200, labor and tech costs of another $4-500, some $500-600 in engineering costs & FAA liasion expenses to be amortized, and an 18 year liability string after the fact. Fewer still will undertake that process for less than a 50-100% margin, and almost no one can afford to inventory any stock when the raw materials are so expensive.

That is how you get to the 'ridiculous numbers' charged by folks like Univair.

Classic Aero stands ready to help with FAA certified parts and we maintain a n FAA QA system, but we need to what and how many 'units' to work with in order to plot production that will sustain the business and future support. Any takers? make your proposal.

Doug

[OldBits]

Re: News from the Factory III

Dan's Positive rant on the Univair Source was partially accurate. I have used them for more than 30 years with limited success.

Some of their parts are great, some are awful, and quality improvement IS NOT on their agenda once they get an FAA approval- period (believe me I have tried- their Luscombe Exhaust ruins the cowl by chafing. Univair's Luscombe heat muffs, while the same SHAPE as the original equipment, are made of material nearly 40% thinner (.025" vs .040").

For those reasons, when the Luscombe Foundation introduced stainless stacks that ran hotter (heat dissipation is greater in stainless material), the Univair muffs had a very limited life due to melting or accelerated chafing, and the Univair install kits were never well documented, so many were done incorrectly, hastening their demise in service.

Doug Combs

[barnstmr]

Re: News from the Factory III

I do PMA certification packages for a living. My employer has over 800 PMA parts on twin Cessnas and Barons, etc. I know the PMA data trail very well and have other friends (FAA designees) who can help make things happen. I'd be very interested in assisting any effort to keep these birds flying. I cannot afford to donate free time, but I can offer very reasonable rates.

[dmcneil]

Re: News from the Factory III

Hey All,

More news from the Brownsville Herald...

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/ts_comments.php?id=73033_0_10_0_C

Again, when you are thinking of doing business with anyone who offers new airplanes or new parts, it's caveat emptor. Check the public/court records first!

Dan

Dan

[lawheelock]

Re: News from the Factory III

Just a comment on Univair.
I have been buying parts from them for both Stinsons and Taylorcraft for more than 40 years. While I have not bought a lot of parts, I have never received a part that I did not feel was of top quality. I have never had a problem with parts fitting from Univair.
I have bought a few parts from Wag Aero, though not lately, and never had a part that fitted right without some minor modification.
Yes, Univair parts are costly, but if compared with a similar part from Piper, Cessna, Mooney and especially Beech, their parts are reasonablly priced! I am just happy that they exist especially for the Stinson crowd.
I would be happy to see them producing more Taylorcraft parts. I think at one time they owned the type certificate for a while. Is that true, Forrest?
If one looks at the time to produce these custom made parts due to extremely low volume, they are mostly cheap. Know any auto dealers charging less than $65.00 an hour for repair labor? Not many!
Know any A&ps or IAs making the same as auto mechanics? Not unless they are working for bankrupt airlines.
My 2 cents.
Keep the T-Crafts flying!
Larry Wheelock

[Forrest Barber]

Re: News from the Factory III

Yes Univair owned the TC's that Charlie & Dorothy Feris bought. I am watching the present situation closely, the parts that were seized and placed into storage for a Sheriff's sale are in a secure warehouse, about $350,000 at retail. This sale is being delayed about two weeks. I was hoping someone close to the situation would post about this sale. I guess it a waiting game for the possible bidders. Kind of like E-Bay.

[dmcneil]

Re: News from the Factory III

Hey Forrest and All,

I just got a reply from the Sheriff's Office in Brownsville. Here's the text of the response:

Mr. McNeill,

Thank you for your inquiry. The auction will take place on Tuesday, 10/17/06, 10:00 am at Jones Moving & Storage, 2404 Wilson Road, Harlingen, TX.

The items will be auctioned to the highest bidder. Terms are cashier's check or cash only. Items purchased need to be taken same day.

If you need further information, Eugene Morales at (956)554-6700 x2067 may be able to answer your questions.

Norma Jean Hawkins
Cameron County Sheriff's Office
7300 Old Alice Road
Olmito, TX 78575

Office (956)554-6700 Ext. 2009
Fax (956)554-6775
E-mail [email protected]

If anyone is interested in this sale, you should call Mr. Morales for more details. Wouldn't be a bad idea to check back with him to make sure the sale schedule remains as planned. Then get your behinds down to Brownsville!

Dan