POH for BC-12D

[Forrest Barber]

Re: POH for BC-12D

"Operation Limitations" must be displayed in full view of the pilot. Usually you have to look back over your shoulder next to the airworthiness & registration .
It is one of the "required placards' and instrument markings that you need to go fly to go fly . This is a big thing that I check first before doing an annual. It is the second thing the FAA looks for right after the accident. D rude scanned an example & put it on this thread.
It is for YOUR airplane when it was built.

[Guest]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Which little piece of paper? The Weight and Balance, or the one with the so called operating limitations? I have a weight and balance, but the other one I do not have. Neither of my airplanes have that one.

Hi Greg,

The operations limitations must be in the aircraft.

Look at the pictures I posted a few notes prior. You will see it says on the bottom of that form that it must be displayed in view of the pilot.

Dave.

[alwaysoar]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Both have to be in the aircraft

[Greg Bockelman]

Re: POH for BC-12D

"Operation Limitations" must be displayed in full view of the pilot. Usually you have to look back over your shoulder next to the airworthiness & registration .
It is one of the "required placards' and instrument markings that you need to go fly to go fly . This is a big thing that I check first before doing an annual. It is the second thing the FAA looks for right after the accident. D rude scanned an example & put it on this thread.
It is for YOUR airplane when it was built.

OK, here is the FAR quote, minus the irrelevent portions:

§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.
top

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

Editorial note here. Since there really is no flight manual for the Taylorcraft, that leaves markings and placards.

(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in §121.141(b); and

This does not apply because there is no manual.

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by §21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

c and d do not apply. But what DOES apply is the portion in bold. OR ANY COMBINATION. That little slip of paper does not need to be in the airplane if the limitations are annotated by markings and placards.

Being as my airplane just came out of a major rebuild, and scrutinized by more than one fed and or DAR, I cannot believe that all of those people would overlook the fact that that piece of paper was not there. Besides, the operating limitations that applied when my airplane was built no longer apply because of the upgrades and STC's.

I have not seen that slip of paper in ANY airplane I have owned or rented since my initial PP in a 1969 Cessna 150. The reg has been complied with by the "Markings and Placards" part.

Having said that, I would kind of like to have the piece of paper. How do I get one?

[Guest]

Re: POH for BC-12D

OK, here is the FAR quote, minus the irrelevent portions:



Editorial note here. Since there really is no flight manual for the Taylorcraft, that leaves markings and placards.



This does not apply because there is no manual.



c and d do not apply. But what DOES apply is the portion in bold. OR ANY COMBINATION. That little slip of paper does not need to be in the airplane if the limitations are annotated by markings and placards.

Being as my airplane just came out of a major rebuild, and scrutinized by more than one fed and or DAR, I cannot believe that all of those people would overlook the fact that that piece of paper was not there. Besides, the operating limitations that applied when my airplane was built no longer apply because of the upgrades and STC's.

I have not seen that slip of paper in ANY airplane I have owned or rented since my initial PP in a 1969 Cessna 150. The reg has been complied with by the "Markings and Placards" part.

Having said that, I would kind of like to have the piece of paper. How do I get one?

Hi Greg,

Paragraph 91.9(a) is about complying with the limitations and is not so relevent to our discussion about what document has to be in the airplane.

I like your point regarding 91.9(b)(2) the "any combination thereof" is about approved manual material, manuals, markings and placards.

I personally am not sure what the scope of an "approved placard" is at this moment. For sure it could be that operations limitations. But can it be the same info contained in it and pasted on the panel with a label maker? Not sure. But to have that info to put into the label maker you would need the Operation limatation doc, somewhat circuitous huh?

None the less the document does say it must be in the aircraft. That's a strong indicator.

BTW, I just read numerous posts here (perhaps not by you or I) that accused feds of being a bunch of idiotic bungholes (I totally disagree) but if true no surprize they missed an obscure old form.


Free advice, always worth twice what you pay for it.

Hope this helps,

Dave

[Guest]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Hi again Greg,

Sorry, I forgot to tell to you how to get the form.

Get the airplane history from the FAA in OKLA city.

There have been a few posts about the number to call to get it. I forgot it.

You will get the 337 history, the registration and in the beginning of the data there will be that Operations limatation form you want.

Think it will cost you $5. Mine came on fiche, I think they now come on CD.

Dave

[Greg Bockelman]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Hi again Greg,

Sorry, I forgot to tell to you how to get the form.

Get the airplane history from the FAA in OKLA city.

There have been a few posts about the number to call to get it. I forgot it.

You will get the 337 history, the registration and in the beginning of the data there will be that Operations limatation form you want.

Think it will cost you $5. Mine came on fiche, I think they now come on CD.

Dave

That gets you a COPY of the form, not the form itself. My BC12-65 has been converted to what is effectively an F-19, therefore none of the numbers that may be contained on that form are relevent. Any copy of one from the past is totally irrelevent at this point.

[Greg Bockelman]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Hi Greg,

I personally am not sure what the scope of an "approved placard" is at this moment. For sure it could be that operations limitations. But can it be the same info contained in it and pasted on the panel with a label maker? Not sure. But to have that info to put into the label maker you would need the Operation limatation doc, somewhat circuitous huh?

Well yeah, I have seen the limitations done via label maker. Kind of cheesy, but it works.

None the less the document does say it must be in the aircraft. That's a strong indicator.

That document could have been superceded at any point in the past. The back contains weight and balance data that can be obtained from the latest official weight and balance report. The data on the front can be in the form of markings and placards.

BTW, the Official data is contained in the Type Certificate Data Sheet. That is where the limitations that would be publised in an aircraft flight manual, if there was one, would be found.

I contend that the little form is not required anymore if the data can be found from other official sources. Placards and markings, along with the latest weight and balance form cover it in my book.

[Guest]

Re: POH for BC-12D

That gets you a COPY of the form, not the form itself. My BC12-65 has been converted to what is effectively an F-19, therefore none of the numbers that may be contained on that form are relevent. Any copy of one from the past is totally irrelevent at this point.

Hi Greg,

I misunderstood and thought you were looking for the original one.

I see your point.

BTW I put only a copy in the ac and keep original with the logs. same for AW cert.

I wonder if the FAA issues current ones similar to issuing a replacement airworthiness cert?

Dave.

[Greg Bockelman]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Hi Greg,

BTW I put only a copy in the ac and keep original with the logs. same for AW cert.

Dave.

The FAA requires the original to be on the airplane. If you have a copy you are not legal.

[Guest]

Re: POH for BC-12D

The FAA requires the original to be on the airplane. If you have a copy you are not legal.

eek! thanks Greg,

I may have orig AW Cert in plane as only copies are with logs so hopefully I said it and remembered it wrong.

Definetly have orig. Op Lim doc with logs. I'll fix that asap.

Thanks again, Dave

[Forrest Barber]

Re: POH for BC-12D

You all will find out what is required right after the accident.
The "Original" Airworthiness, and Certificate of registration is required first, no copies!! Then the Operations Limitations, which of course is superceded by any changes by 337's , revised wt & balance and other things. I do not understand any rebuild that was done without it. Sometime we can get into the Group II approvals.
For Greg , that "effectively" F-19 certainly is not now an ATC 1A9 it is still a ATC 696, 699 or 700... it is "equivalent" to the F-19 at best... I have proven many a FAA PMI inspector wrong on these conversions...
Robert Harer called the other day and we had a long discussion about which Models Taylorcraft to use to apply the Harer ( Old Gilberti) STC.

[Guest]

Re: POH for BC-12D

Checked mine today, I was mistaken.

I have the original AW and Registration in there.

Copy of the Op limitation with updated weight & balance sheets attached.

Sound ok Forrest?

Thanks, Dave.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: POH for BC-12D

That works for the CLE FSDO & MIDO and me too!! There are other ways to skin a cat but that works best around here....

[Greg Bockelman]

Re: POH for BC-12D

You all will find out what is required right after the accident.

This is true.

Then the Operations Limitations, which of course is superceded by any changes by 337's , revised wt & balance and other things.

OK. But are you telling me that little sheet of paper must still be in the airplane even though all the data on it has been superceded or changed and is no longer accurate? Even though that data can be found on other official forms, "placards and markings"?

I do not understand any rebuild that was done without it.

Maybe that was because all the data was available via the "placards and markings. If it was scrutinized by all those inspectors, I cannot believe they ALL overlooked it.

Sometime we can get into the Group II approvals.

I have no idea what that means.

For Greg , that "effectively" F-19 certainly is not now an ATC 1A9 it is still a ATC 696, 699 or 700... it is "equivalent" to the F-19 at best... I have proven many a FAA PMI inspector wrong on these conversions...

While this is definitely true, what Type Certificate Data Sheet do I use for the limits on my airplane? I mean, really? Since it has been "upgraded" and is "equivalent" to the F-19, the ATC 700 under which it was originally certified is no longer valid.

And all of this discussion has not answered one of my original questions.

How do I get an "Official" one of those limitaton forms that was shown in a picture at the top of this thread?