Cubcrafters suing Legend

[VictorBravo]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

There may be another angle on this...

The "Piper Cub" is a long standing American icon, in the minds of millions of non-pilots this phrase represents every small airplane ever produced. It may have transcended everything and be considered in the "public domain". Consider that any customized high performance street car can be called a "Hot Rod", and nobody can sue anyone else if Chevrolet decided to name their next car the Chevy Hot Rod. Not even the NHRA, I would guess.

The $64 question is whether Cub Crafters had the right to trademark the word "Cub" and any aircraft-related use of the word "Cub", and whether they did trademark that word by itself. If the government allowed them to trademark the word "Cub", then the government made a big mistake. The government should have said to Cub Crafters "Sorry, you can have Cub Crafters and you can have a specific model name like Bush Cub or Mountain Cub, but the Cub by itself is the worldwide concept of an airplane that has been known and duplicated by thousands long before you applied for this trademark."

Now if Piper Aircraft Co. had trademarked the Cub name, colors, and concept back in the 1930's, AND if they sold that trademark to Cub Crafters, then it would be a clear case of infringement. However, even in that situat5ion, if Piper owned the name and concept, and didn't enforce it for 70 years while others built little yellow Cub-alikes, then a court could rule that Legend wasn't doing anything that Piper hadn't allowed everyone else to do.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

ANYONE can paint a plane(tractor) CUB(green and yellow) colors as long as they are not using the color(brand identity) for PROFIT.

So when I sell my J-3 to the next guy I can't make any money on it because it is infringing on Cub-Crafters rights? Sarcastic, but you get my point. Cub-crafters is trying to control the market through intimidation and although they may be right legally, it is unethical to sue over a color scheme unless they actually have the yellow/black lightning bolt trademarked which I still feel is rediculous.

What it boils down to is Cub-Crafters got sued by Piper several years ago and lost forcing the name change on their Super-Cubs. They got burned badly so now they are playing hard ball and returning the favor.

mike

[1938BF50]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

Woe be to the entrepreneur who tries to use green and yellow in any combination that implies JOHN DEERE! I know.....I tried. They have those colors locked up tight! It IS the JD trademark. It was not a long battle....I was pooched right from the beginning and was smart enough to bail early. My mentality says that whoever may have trademarked the CUB color scheme has the upper hand here. ANYONE can paint a plane(tractor) CUB(green and yellow) colors as long as they are not using the color(brand identity) for PROFIT.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

Will every yellow cub need to be repainted? Of course not. Will every black bolt cause a lawyer to magically appear at your hangar? Of course not. Not that I'd try to disuade anyone from having an opinion on any subject on this board -- Hey that's what the board's for -- an opinion is what I'm giving now -- so here it goes: The media needs heroes and villians, good-guys and bad men, it is the way we operate. They'll queue you to how they feel by what they say. But how the media feels is more about packaging. They need a victim because the story is easier and quicker to tell. So a 5 minute report can be squeezed to 90 seconds and a 2000 word story can be done in 500 words. It is journalistic short-hand, but is it the truth?
The problem is -- you can't judge the world by what the media says. John and Patsy Ramsey, Richard Jewell, and many more are caught up in the echo-chamber of repetitive reporting. With one lazy reporter telling you what another reporter just said. They're all just interviewing themselves for God'-sake! OK... I feel better now. Lawyers are easy foils. Politicians are too. I've known several of each and found them all honorable. Please insert and reflect upon your personal knowledge regarding this matter. But to hear the media tell it -- politicians and legal types are all criminals and scamsters. I can't tell by the reports I've seen enough about the merits of this Cubcrafters case either way. If you can -- you're smarter than me, or being led around by the lazy media.

News is not your friend. It used to be. But now, it's crass, lazy, and fatter than me. It's expressed object is to tell stories for purposes of profit, not findings of fact. Therefore,
trial by judge or jury will continue to replace the civil discourse of a fully informed society. I am a member of the media and as Ed Morrow paraphrased Will Shakespear; "This is a Ceasar that I've come to bury, not to praise. If Cubcrafters owns the rights, and I'm not saying that I know this as fact, but, if they do... then this is legitimate and only a court looking at all the facts can make the determination. Journalism can't, or better said won't.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[hangarb7]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

About six months ago on a television journalism program (60 minutes, or some such program) my wife and I watched Starbucks put a woman thru hell who had named her business, Sam Buck's coffee shop in New England.

Since my wife and I are small business owners, we found it distressing for the same reasons put forth above.

However, the program was well presented and in the end, Starbucks won, making her change the name. But my wife and I got a real sense for the fact that if they would have looked the other way, and found it "Cute" like everyone else, then it opens the can of worms that anyone can open a coffee shop and infringe on the 'bucks' that have been developed and worked so well by an entrepreneurial enterprise like Starbucks.

My wife and I sided with Starbucks as to how it had been presented on the program (media slant considered).

In this Cub case however (and remember, Wag Aero had to stop using "Cubby" because of the look and feel of the product so closely resembling a Cub and using a name so close to the original...) I believe this really IS a can of worms not worth opening.

There have been literally dozens of Cub look alikes from homebuilts to ultralights that are almost indistiguishable from a distance. Wouldn't a ruling in court for Cub Crafters mean that now no one could paint their experimental, built from scratch Cub to look like the real thing? And Cub Crafters for years had been taking the Cub theme and actually improving it (maybe not to the extent of Legend), but not really celebrating the fact that they were impinging on the Piper legend either. And maybe they should retroactively sue C.G.'s heirs for using the Taylor Cub theme?

Yep, they are Johnny Come Latelys and not the originators even if they do own the Cub name now. I think they are sore losers and should expend that money and energy on improving their product and showing how they can make a better aircraft.

i.e. Legend is not the first and hopefully won't be the last to build a better Cub and find their success in a good sales figure.

Poop on Cub Crafters. I hope someone buys Taylorcraft and builds an LSA called the Taylor Cub. Then they can get some extra cash by sueing Cub Crafters for infringing on the real Cub.

Jack Dernorsek
N44057
BC12D

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

Interestingly this idea that people sue for fun and profit is only a little true. Aggressive marketing means you're always working the margins. Sometimes you're working the margins of what another company claims as their territory.
In the old days you'd send toughs to beat in his windows and intimidate his employees. Today you sue. It's a better system than allowing the passions of the street to settle all business matters. Remember in the "Godfather" they were killing lot's of people and "it's just business." Business negotiations can only take you so far. On those points you disagree with your competititor courts better than quick draw at 20 paces.

So while we all tell lawyer jokes and we all like hazing them at cocktail parties... We're much the better for them.
Please remember I'm not a lawyer. But, I keep a few as friends and had dinner with one last night.
With regards;
Ed O'Brien

[cpirrmann]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

Tort reform has been desired for years, especially based on the English system, but the Tort Attorneys lobby which is one of the largest PACs has effectively blocked any reform.

[crispy critter]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

I've seen the Legend Cubs(LSA) and the Cub Crafters Cub(LSA).....I think the Legend cub has the best bird on the market in the cub family and I would say most people would agree. IMHO Cub Crafters has seen the same thing and because jealous because someone else has finally redeveoped a cub better then thiers and now they want to put them out of buisness.
I think some of todays laws and rights on lawsuits has gotten WAY out of hand and something needs to be done to prevent some of these silly suits. Maybe if we could pass a law that if you file a suit against someone and loose then you should be responsible for all fees,expenses, and damages plus loose the tax deductable rights. That would certainly put a stop to thousands of un-nessesary lawsuits!

[N96337]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

What about Cub Crafters using the name "Cub" before they owned any type certs??? Nobody sued them for that.... I, like quite a few others around the area, have a bit of a bad taste in my mouth for them... personally, I'd LOVE to see them lose!!! I'm a die-hard, loyal Harley fan, and was hoping they'd get whipped when they sued over the "sound"... Seems to me that this is about the same thing....what a joke...what a waste of our judicial system..... I think CubCrafters needs to grow up and get real.
JH

[CraigH]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

It's been done before. If you can't outsmart them in the market, outspend them in the courtroom.

I think you hit the nail on the head. American Legend was spanking the hell out of Cub Crafters with their LSA, so Cub Crafters had to do something (anything) to put a wrench in their gears. Personally, I wouldn't want to do business with anyone who considers that an ethical way of conducting business.

[cpirrmann]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

It will be interesting to see how the plaintiff manages to discribe something as common as a color scheme,that has been painted on light planes for maybe say, 60 some years to belong to they're trademark ownership.Thats like saying a style of music is copywritten,and I hope they don't prevail.
If they do, they can bully the compatition out of fair market revenue and American competitive business ethics will loose,again.

It's been done before. If you can't outsmart them in the market, outspend them in the courtroom.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

Xerox protects their brand by making writers change to photo-copy, what they had written. Velvet Elvis paintings have been sued into the ground by Lisa-Marie. Even Crispin Glover (Marty's woeful father in the Sci-fi trilogy)sued Back to the Future Producers for putting his head digitally on another man's body who was also using Glover's acting mannerisms. It'll be interesting to see how this thing comes out.

Intellectual property is a real thing and needs to be preserved. It's how I make my living and too makes me sad when others by theft take what is not their own. Cartier Jewlers, Hugo Boss leather jackets, and Back to the Future DVD's have copyright/trademark/patent protections from knock-off houses and side-walk peddlers. About 1/3 of our economy is based on these laws and principles. Wish them away at your own risk. I'm neither for or against this Cubcrafters action, seeing that I didn't know anymore of it than the story at the top of the page. But, Intellectual Property is real property.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN
is based

[flybikefarm]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

This sounds like harley davidson sueing over the sound of there engine a couple of years ago. George

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

claiming that Cub Crafters has rights to the names "Cub" and "Legend," plus the yellow-with-black design.

I wonder what Piper Aircraft Company, Legend Aircraft Company, Wag-Aero and their "Cubby", and every one who has restored a Cub and put the lightning bolt back on it "as original" would have to say about it. I think Cub Crafters might be opening a huge bag of worms.

Mike

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Cubcrafters suing Legend

These things always seem to come down to nasty. That said, you can paint a TaylorCub to look like an Army l-2 but I doubt you could paint your 747 to look like Airforce One. Probably only Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are monied enough to try this. They would likely find trouble if they did because often it does come to nasty.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN