brake stand

[FunkyMonkey]

maybe a stupid question butttt- Not sure what its called but i saw some bush pilot hot shot in a movie raise his tail up while still in a full stop before releasing the brakes. Just got my tailwheel endorsement and that wasnt in the training. does it have an official name? but more important what are the advantages? can you get off sooner? i would imagine it wouldnt be wise in a crosswind. also can a completely stock BC-12D capable of doing it? thanks in advance for any wisdom and/or patience with my stupid questions.

[Richard Boyer]

Re: brake stand

Nope. I tried.

I GOTTA stop watching movies!!!!


I can get the tail up, but as soon as I let off the brakes the tail settles back down to the ground. That is with an 85hp engine too. (On the flip side, I am about 175 to 200lbs heavier that a 65hp T).

[FunkyMonkey]

Re: brake stand

weight up front ought to make it easier though

[Ragwing nut]

Re: brake stand

maybe a stupid question butttt- Not sure what its called but i saw some bush pilot hot shot in a movie raise his tail up while still in a full stop before releasing the brakes. Just got my tailwheel endorsement and that wasnt in the training. does it have an official name? but more important what are the advantages? can you get off sooner? i would imagine it wouldnt be wise in a crosswind. also can a completely stock BC-12D capable of doing it? thanks in advance for any wisdom and/or patience with my stupid questions.

The only advantage is it is a lot easier to stick the prop in the dirt if you are not careful. The 100hp T-craft I have been flying will do it, but I don't advise it. You will get off faster with the tail on the ground.

Mike

[Mark Julicher]

Re: brake stand

I think that takeoff technique is for making toothpicks out of Sensenichs.
If you have unlimited $$ you can disprove most of the Hollywood myths about airplanes
We could have a whole thread on Hollywood BS, but I guess it better go under Rants and Raves.

[fearofpavement]

Re: brake stand

I have done it on occasion with our 100hp BC-12D but it has disc brakes. During training I have demonstrated a stop and go landing coming to a complete stop and then taking off again without touching the tail. There is really no practical purpose for this operationally other than it shows the capability of the aircraft and what it can do. ie quit whining about the plane and sharpen up your flying skills... A secondary benefit is it gets my heart beating at a rate equivilent to running a half mile and is a whole lot more fun. The tricky part is not the stopping with the tail up (or raising it while stopped) but when you start moving it takes a gradual and smooth release of braking pressure which the cable brakes likely aren't capable of. (ok, Bob Hoover, nothing personal) I agree with a previous post that this technique is not likely to shorten a take off distance and other than the pleasing visual effects for the audience probably has no benefit. I also agree that it is risky to the propellor compared to not doing it. Oh, one more benefit is that it shows the importance of holding the stick back when power is applied.

[1948TCARTDRIVER]

Re: brake stand

I've done it a few times in my T craft with stock brakes and an A-65, the bush pilots might have a legitimate reason for it but for me it is just a show off maneuver. It similar to doing a wheel landing and keeping your tail up until you nearly stop. Both things my father showed me when he was in a mischievous mood. No real advantage to either one , just more risk to the airplane.

[Dan Mahalak]

Re: brake stand

I would not call it showing off, simply unserstanding what yoru machine will and will not do. iN FACT, WEHN EVER i TRY NEW STUFF I TRY TO BE ALONE. I have also tried it and been both successful and not. Fun either way....part fo the great joy of tailwheel flying.

But, Lonnie Scott in his rather stock pa-18 demonstrates a very useful application for this on a short, off airport in the river bottom, rock infested taxi to takeoff and taxi to position. You can view on BIG ROCKS LONG PROPS. Basically, he puts the tail in the air, and very skillfully lifts the tail and turns to the left. Lifting his tail allows him to clear a large log and increasing his departure run. NOt so skillful pilots as myself would have
A. Not landed and shot video.
B. Used the available beach (gravel midpoint bar really)
or most likely..SHUTDOWN AND GOT OUT, LIFTED THE TAIL OVER THE LOG AND STARTED ALL OVER AGAIN.
MY best solution.....go to floats and land lots more places safely.

[SkyHigh]

Re: brake stand

Choice "A" is really the best. Those fancy cub guys crash a lot of planes to get those skills. When I was in Alaska my Stupid-Cub friends planned on a few boo-boos every season and to total a plane every two to three years. It was the cost of flying under those conditions. Occasionally they would die.


SkyHigh

[N95179]

Re: brake stand

Choice "A" is really the best. Those fancy cub guys crash a lot of planes to get those skills. When I was in Alaska my Stupid-Cub friends planned on a few boo-boos every season and to total a plane every two to three years. It was the cost of flying under those conditions. Occasionally they would die.


SkyHigh

There are several Super Cub pilots still out there who still after decades of flying them and after mastering advanced bush flying skills manged NOT to crash and total a plane every two or three years. Some have not even ding an airplane!

It's all about staying ahead of the airplane and not letting yourself get into those situations where you will get yourself killed. How's that quote go..."A superior pilot is one who uses his superior knowlege and judgement to avoid the situations which would require the use of his superior skill."

A great book on bush flying and tailwheel flying is "F.E. Potts Guide to Bush Flying". He is one of those true professionals I was talking about who has never crashed an airplane and has mastered his field of expertise. My grandpa is another example. He has flown up here in Alaska in everything from Super Cubs to his Beechcraft Staggerwing and hasn't scratched a single plane. He taught me to fly seven years ago in his Cessna 170 when I was 15 and started me on the path I'm on today. He's the best pilot I've ever flown with.

"If you're not afraid of heights, you shouldn't be up here." - regarding professional mountain climbers. Same goes with flying. You have to respect the airplane and the environment around you. Things can change and you must be able to react appropriately. Practice Practice Practice, read everything you can get your hands on, and learn as much as you can cram between your ears. A professor of mine in Anchorage once told me "Flying is either disciplined, or dangerous," so take your pick, you can be the sloppy pilot who gets himself killed, or the pro who flies for a lifetime and loves every minute of it.

As with the brake stands, you have to be careful and work yourself up to them. Just as with landings, you don't want the ground to come to you, you want to come to the ground. (who's in control here, you or the airplane??) Yes, it is risky, and lots of people get their props pulling stunts they shouldn't be doing. It sure is fun though when you get such a feel for it that you can make the 90 degree left turn off the runway, then the 90 degree right turn on the taxiway without ever letting the tail down.

Sure beats driving a spam-can nose-dragger.

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[Vasey fan]

Re: brake stand

I had a C-120 with the MacKenzie installed O-290D once. It could stay up on the mains all day long, even with the battery moved back 14" it was pretty light in the tail. I sometimes kept the tail up all the way to the ramp, although I was a lot younger then (and the potential prop strike $$ were always in the back of my mind).

[SkyHigh]

Re: brake stand

There are several Super Cub pilots still out there who still after decades of flying them and after mastering advanced bush flying skills manged NOT to crash and total a plane every two or three years. Some have not even ding an airplane!

It's all about staying ahead of the airplane and not letting yourself get into those situations where you will get yourself killed. How's that quote go..."A superior pilot is one who uses his superior knowledge and judgement to avoid the situations which would require the use of his superior skill."

A great book on bush flying and tail wheel flying is "F.E. Potts Guide to Bush Flying". He is one of those true professionals I was talking about who has never crashed an airplane and has mastered his field of expertise. My grandpa is another example. He has flown up here in Alaska in everything from Super Cubs to his Beechcraft Staggerwing and hasn't scratched a single plane. He taught me to fly seven years ago in his Cessna 170 when I was 15 and started me on the path I'm on today. He's the best pilot I've ever flown with.

"If you're not afraid of heights, you shouldn't be up here." - regarding professional mountain climbers. Same goes with flying. You have to respect the airplane and the environment around you. Things can change and you must be able to react appropriately. Practice Practice Practice, read everything you can get your hands on, and learn as much as you can cram between your ears. A professor of mine in Anchorage once told me "Flying is either disciplined, or dangerous," so take your pick, you can be the sloppy pilot who gets himself killed, or the pro who flies for a lifetime and loves every minute of it.

As with the brake stands, you have to be careful and work yourself up to them. Just as with landings, you don't want the ground to come to you, you want to come to the ground. (who's in control here, you or the airplane??) Yes, it is risky, and lots of people get their props pulling stunts they shouldn't be doing. It sure is fun though when you get such a feel for it that you can make the 90 degree left turn off the runway, then the 90 degree right turn on the taxiway without ever letting the tail down.

Sure beats driving a spam-can nose-dragger.

The guys whom I am referring to are professional guide pilots in Bristol Bay. They don't have the luxury of only flying on sunny days to gravel bars that they have been to a hundred times before. If you are not a little concerned for your well being then you shouldn't be flying either. Once you start to think that you have got it all figured out and are crash proof is when it sneaks up on you.

It is a nice security blanket to think that education and practice will protect you from harm but off airport flying is dangerous and there is no amount of learning that can protect you from everything. An adrenaline high can be achieved by scaring yourself a little and usually requires more risk every time to reach the high the next time.

I was a CFI in Anchorage for a few years and went to some of the same classes at UAA as you might be taking. During my time as an instructor in Anchorage it upset me to see newly minted private pilots bet the family home through a home equity loan and run out to buy a champ or 170 and against my advice they would begin to play bush pilot only to end up upside down in the river a few weeks later or worse.

The off airport culture can be very alluring and dangerous. A good book for you would be "Into The Wild" by Jon Krakauer. It portrays a young mans hunger for the same adrenalin high until it killed him. The same psychology applies to wannabe bush pilots. I lost one of my earliest friends to that very thing in a Taylorcraft crash. He was 25 years old and came from Soldotna. He is the guy who turned me on to the Taylorcraft in the first place.

Tail stands have their place one of them is to use it to taxi against a strong wind however it requires strong hydraulic brakes to do it. Outside of that if someone has a plane with a lot of horse power you can reach full static power with the tail up and upon brake release enjoy a faster acceleration since you have a neutral angle of attack to begin with. In summery they are trying to duplicate the superior qualities of a nose wheel plane.

SkyHigh