Martin Fabric Clip Question

[Ernest Golper]

Ok I may be putting way to much thought in this but dose it matter what direction the fabric clips should face? I'm referring to the hooked or barbed part. Should the barbed part face the leading edge or the trailing edge when thay are pushed into the rib? Any input or thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[paulnuss]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

I believe there is an intent to the shape of the hooks. I think they should be installed with the hooks aft. That way, if the fabric should somehow start to peel, progress of the peel is impeded by the grab of the hook, bumped-out shape to the rear of the hole, whereas if the straight part were aft, the wire could lift out of the hole. Of course, for high-speed tail slides, that would be reversed! ;-)) Maybe I'm thinking into it too much too! But that's always the way I did mine.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

Hmmmmm I always followed the Taylorcraft Manual, you install from rear to front like they do at the factory, barb to the front. I doubt there was any thought of the fabric "peeling" off...

[crispy critter]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

Forrest,
I don't like to disagree with you but an old IA(now big wigg for the FAA) said they always point to the back....the point on the barb always points to the back of the wing so if a tear develops or tape joint comes loose then the fabric will be unable to pull the wires loose. I told him that if you get a big hole it will cut threw the ribs anyway but his defense was, normally a small hole will always develpe before a big hole and with the wires in the proper way(barb pointing to the rear)they should prevent the hole from becoming larger in a hurry. He said if they were turned barb pointing forward then a small hole could pop the wires loose as soon as the hole opened up but with them in the other way they will hold for a while.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

he is full of it! and by the way that is not a "martin" fabric clip , it is a Taylorcraft wire. My father and two other fellows in inspection developed the original handtool that made the bends in the wire... call the factory , they use them! I hope the correct way!

[crispy critter]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

Just repeating what I was taught and it makes sense to me that it would lock in place front to back. This guy may be incorrect but he knows his stuff and it makes more sense to install them so they lock on the front side or from front to rear.......myself I don't use the stuff, I hate it and do not like the finish job it leaves....I use thick chaffing tape around the ribs before applying fabric then stitch the fabric to the ribs using a flat stitching cord. It's a hell of a lot more work but the outcome is much better..All this of course is IMHO.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

THEN we get into the argument that stitching does "not conform to type certificate". I have written letters of opinion to that very question. IF you use Taylorcraft wire then the spacing is correct and the wire does not push up if installed correctly. An older engineer showed me that the fabricated ribs are designed for stitching, the top of the wing fabric trys to pull up and is resisted by the stitching around the BOTTOM of the rib. The wire lacing uses the top of the rib as it was designed to do. I am only speaking from Over 50 yrs. of working on Taylorcrafts.
Remind your old IA that I was taught by an older D.A.M.I. ( my FATHER with the A&E license of 12121 and DAMI 64xx.
Personally I do not think it makes any difference which way the barbs are inserted THEY will never "peel" out , try it sometime......
I still love Old crispy , you are a very good pilot & mechanic.... keep jumping in here, are u making it to Sun-Fun? I just started the thread....I just spent quite a bit of time last week researching Mr. Obrien's airplane, e-mail me about it sometime, WHAT were you thinking?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

I have a pile of ruined ribs that some dummy pulled the wires out of and split every hole. You better believe those wires are NOT pulling out of the holes unless you pinch the hooks together so they can come out of the hole. Anybody know a fix for torn rib wire holes?
Hank

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

By the way, I put my wires in the way it's shown on the wing drawings (like Forrest said). It really doesn't matter who is "right" about which way is "better". The TAYLORCRAFT drawings are right BY DEFINITION. I have seen LOTS of things that could have been done better than the way the factory did it, but if you change it, your plane is out of conformity.
Hank
Not that you will find more than 2 or 3 inspectors in the country who will know the difference. I had a great discuussion with an IA who said I couldn't use the "very nice home made exhaust" on my 41. The only Taylorcraft he had ever inspected had a Cub exhaust on it. He thought my original one was home made. I was walking around with a big head that he thought I could build that nice an exhaust system!

[crispy critter]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

I have a pile of ruined ribs that some dummy pulled the wires out of and split every hole. You better believe those wires are NOT pulling out of the holes unless you pinch the hooks together so they can come out of the hole. Anybody know a fix for torn rib wire holes?
Hank

Hank,
The only ways to repair those are to change the hole spacing for those ribs affected and I'm not sure what that might do to the strength of the rib.I have seen ribs that have been done this way and then new holes were drilled half way between the originals but that throws everything off including your anchor holes....I don't like that type of repair method. I don't think you can find anyone who can weld the holes without warping or damaging the temper of the rip. My advice is to replace the ribs or use an alternitive method of attachment...I don't use the wire anyway on my own birds but as Forrest said to stay legal on the Type Cert you must use it so I would use it on someone elses if i'm doing repairs for them.
If you do decide to stitch the stamped ribs I would advise you to use good chaffing tape and make sure if overlaps the sharp edge of the rib good. I also use a flat like rib stitch cord like provided by SuperFlite. You could also use PK screews or fabric(pop) rivits with the fabric washers to attach it but like was said before the T-craft wire is the ONLY type certificated process legal.

[N96337]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

Kevin, I'm with you on the stitching...but wasn't there an STC for using screws/washers? I sure like that method too...done a few Stinsons, and when done right, it's a really nice looking setup!!
JH

[crispy critter]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

THEN we get into the argument that stitching does "not conform to type certificate". I have written letters of opinion to that very question. IF you use Taylorcraft wire then the spacing is correct and the wire does not push up if installed correctly. An older engineer showed me that the fabricated ribs are designed for stitching, the top of the wing fabric trys to pull up and is resisted by the stitching around the BOTTOM of the rib. The wire lacing uses the top of the rib as it was designed to do. I am only speaking from Over 50 yrs. of working on Taylorcrafts.
Remind your old IA that I was taught by an older D.A.M.I. ( my FATHER with the A&E license of 12121 and DAMI 64xx.
Personally I do not think it makes any difference which way the barbs are inserted THEY will never "peel" out , try it sometime......
I still love Old crispy , you are a very good pilot & mechanic.... keep jumping in here, are u making it to Sun-Fun? I just started the thread....I just spent quite a bit of time last week researching Mr. Obrien's airplane, e-mail me about it sometime, WHAT were you thinking?

Forrest,
I meant absolutly no disrespect. Just simply stating what I was taught and both his and your ways make sense. However after looking at the drwings and stuff that I have here I must admitt my defeat and tell all that you are correct. I will still always wonder which way is the best however since I'll never use the stuff on my own bird it really don't matter. I hope you were not offended by my debate and will accept my apolige if I offended you.
As for Sun-Fun, I don't have any plans of trying to attend this year unless I can make some serious head way on Crispy in the next couple weeks. I've been busting my chops working almost around the clock on Crispy for the past 3 weeks trying to get her ready to make Alliance this summer.....it's going to be close,everybody wish me luck.....I have all the fabric work done except the ailerons and plan to get fabric glued on then today. The wings are all ready for UV & paint except for a very few pieces of finish tape which I have ordered and should be here tuesday. My dad has been fitting the panel and making ready to permenatly attach the tail assembly.
Forrest,as for Mr. Orien's t-craft I don't know what that old guy(Old guy being the guy that sold the t-craft to Mr.Obrien) was thinking. I wish Mr. Obrien the best of luck and I hope I can stay out of the middle of his pursuit for justice but I will be there for him if he really needs me and I have no other choice.I will try to call you later this week. Are you going over to Carrol County (Carrolton) on the 24th?

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

Lots of things make sense but are not done! Kevin I never have taken offense to any of the tribe for presenting ideas.
I was so disappointed years ago when a true award winning Taylorcraft appeared on a front cover with the fabric bulged up on top of fuselage and between the ribs and STITCHED , this airplane was not "airworthy" as it did not conform to type design ..
I totally agree that we should come up with the "approval" to stitch the stamped ribs, I understand the factory is doing this now. YES I have used the Fab-Riv and the advice to respace the wire holes is the only good way to do it. What is Carrolton about , you do mean Carrolton, Ohio?
I willl keep you up on the Obrien ship...we have to talk on a secure line sometime. I hope Ernest now does it the "approved" way..... right Ernest !!

[crispy critter]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

Forrest,I'll call you this week.... we do need to talk.

[Dan Carlson]

Re: Martin Fabric Clip Question

The proper way to install the Martin clips is to open the nearest trash can and throw them in any way you choose. Buy yourself a roll of rib lace cord and lay out your spacing. No need to worry about the holes in the ribs being to big or elongated. The air loads imposed on the ribs are distributed over the entire rib instead of just the top or bottom. If you look at a rib, it is a truss designed to spread the load over the entire structure. Rib stiching raps around the whole rib and spreads out the load better than any other fastener. I know that this reply will get a lot panties up in a bunch, but don't always look for the quick way out using some "approved" crap that would be better off thrown away!