Brakes

[Dusty]

Is there an STC to put hydraulic brakes on a -12D? What's the weight difference between the original wheels/brakes/drums/cables/etc. and Clevelands/master cylinder/etc.?

Then again, maybe it's just me - this is a recent acquisition (and my first Taylorcraft). How in the hell are you supposed to get on the brakes while staying on the rudders? Anything that requires much rudder - I have a solid TW, so lots of things require lots of rudder - yanks my foot off the brake. The geometry just isn't right for me. I'm thinking juice brakes would need less stomping on = less chance of me coming off of one brake at a really bad time. Moving the pedals might accomplish the same thing - maybe.

Thoughts?

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Brakes

Please do a search on this site regarding brakes. This subject has come up MANY times and the overwhelming majority always agree that if the Shinns (wheels and brakes)are in good working order (ie adjusted and all parts working) there is no need to replace them. If you really want to to there is an STC. Why one would ever do this is beyond me as you ad weight, complexity etc.
I must say also I do not understand how you can not use the rudder and the brakes at the same time. It seems so natural to me. PRACTICE ?
Also I try to stay OFF the brakes except for tight slow turns and run up. My own humble opinion is that you will be asking for real trouble someday if you get into the habit of using them on landing rollouts. They shold not be needed there.
Now if you do decide to replace them please let me know. I will take em off your hands for a reasonable price anyday. There that good .Unfortunantly Bryon Shinn is long ago ago deceased and Firestone is no longer making them from the orginal rights they bought from the Shinns.

[Don Eide]

Re: Brakes

The answer is YES and NO.
There is a STC for ONE airplane only. Serial # 8154 only.
There has been some discussion about this sometime ago.
A couple of guys said they were working on this, but I
haven't heard anything lately.
Last fall somebody said that the Factory was coming out
with a Brake Kit, haven't seen that either.
If you find an STC, please let me know.
I'd love to have Clevelands and toe brakes.

Don

[Dusty]

Re: Brakes

Jim - Most of my landings are off-airport. I have big tires (24" tubeless) and a 100HP engine. I don't know how much difference that makes, but the brakes did seem a bit better with small (8.50) tires. Then again, I have about 3 landings with those. There are times - lots of them - that I need all the brakes I can get, either to get shut down, or stop beating my plane up on a rough strip, or dodge a hole/rock/etc, or whatever. I don't use the brakes either when landing on a big strip.

I have a Champ with hydraulics and I love em. If hydraulics add 5 pounds, I'm sold. If they add 20, then maybe I'll live with what I have. I'm not doing anything in the next couple hundred hours, except looking at my options.

I totally agree with needing practice - I only have a few hours in this airplane so far. However, I don't think practice will solve what seems to be a physical problem - I can't figure out how to get on a brake as hard as I need to in order to make it effective while holding full (or close to full) rudder at the same time. My foot sticks to the rudder and slides off the brake when I punch a rudder. I'm certainly open to technique suggestions.

I did search this site, but I didn't find anything answering my specific questions.

Don - if you have more info about that plane, could you send it to me? I might be able to use it as the basis for a FA.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Brakes

put hydraulic brakes on a -12D

Most who know me, know I am biased about this, in that the Shinn brakes DO work well on bog-standard 600-6 tyres, with the appropriate maintenance. In terms of getting used to them, if I can do it, so can anyone!

The reason for me posting, is to ask Dusty, with his limited Taylorcraft experience, to get some time with another more experienced pilot, so as to get used to the little foibles and differences that these brakes offer.

They are simple, don't leak, are VERY usable, and easily maintained.

Patience & practice, Dusty.

[Dusty]

Re: Brakes

Robert: I don't have 600-6 tires. I have 24x12x6 tires. Is a 600-6 a good tailwheel tire??

Getting some instruction is on my list. I'll be on skis in a month or so, and should have a couple hundred more hours by spring. Instruction then might be more useful.

I'd be very interested in hearing HOW you use them - unless you wear a size 16 shoe!

Thanks for the comments!

--Dusty

[Tyler AK]

Re: Brakes

Dusty
Most of my flights lead to off airport landings around Anchorage. The shinn's work OK for me. Fresh linings are key for tires larger than 6 inch. The main technique for using heel brakes: light ship, slowest landing speed and don't use the brakes. You know all that with your previous experience. Any way, please get the Cleveland wheels and brakes. I'll take the shinn wheels and brakes off your hands.

Thanks

Tyler

[matsuthunder200]

Re: Brakes

Dusty
I live in the matsu vally. Ive had my t-craft for about 15 years. when i first started flying her it was kinda hard to get ust to the heel brakes after awhile i just got ust to them. As far as the shinns they worked fine untill i got the bigger tires. I was going to go to the hydrolics but i found a good deal on the cleavland manual shoe brakes. there just like the brake shoes on a the rear of a car but not hydrolic. They work better. but if i had it to do all over again i woud go hydrolic cleavlands. Here in alaska you will not have a problem getting them feild app. I have 26inch goodyears on now but i had a set of 30 inch airstreeks on for a few years. most off airport landings gravel bars, tundra, beaches you dont need alot of brake but on the real short strips or mtn tops you need all you can get. As far as heel brakes i almost never haft to apply full rudder and brake at the same time. A frind of mine has hydrolics on his t-craft and he says there alot easyer to use because you dont haft to stand on them to get them to work.

[SkyHigh]

Re: Brakes

I have an F19 with cleveland wheels and mechanical brakes. I live in a windy area and am planing to sell the plane because of the brakes. I hate them. I bought the plane in ANC back in the 90's. I was flying out of Iliamna for the local airtaxi. We did everything with a lot of brakes. The Taylorcraft is just sad. I have 8.50's now but had the goodyears in AK. I had to take them off since I couldn't stop effectivly. How can this flaw be overcome? I hate flying my plane beacuse whenever I take it out the wind comes up and I either need help to get in or I get a rock in the prop since I need to use a lot of power to turn in the wind. You would think that since production planes have hydraulic brakes it would be an easy deal for the FAA. I can understand how a fairweather pilot from TX would think the brakes are fine but to someone who operates outside the envelope it is a very diffrent story. I look at cessna 150's that taxi by with envy. What about just putting the Hydraulics on and damn the FAA. How would they ever catch you? Most IA's cant tell what the plane came with, so unless you told how would anyone know?

[Dusty]

Re: Brakes

It's not that heel brakes are all that different - I really love the heel brakes in the Champ - it's that the guy that designed Tcart brakes had an extra knee sideways just above the ankle to make that thing work!

Tyler - every now and then, I mis-judge a strip and need brakes NOW. My tcart weighs 840 with a 100HP, so it's pretty light. All my previous experience tells me that I am going to need brakes.

[Dano"T"]

Re: Brakes

It's pretty clear that the shinn brakes were not designed to stop 24" tundra tires...let's be serious. They are effective with standard tires up to 8.00's....but 24" goodyears? no way. Why don't you just put on some hydraulics and put it in Experimental....unless you fly for hire that is. The 24" wheels will be much harder for the little shinns to stop and there isn't much you can do about it. Try some VG's maybe you can slow down your approaches.

[matsuthunder200]

Re: Brakes

You can get a feild app on the hydrolic brakes in alaska without any problems In fact i wanted to get a set of 26 inch bushwheels app and the faa said they wouldnt app them unless i went with hydrolic brakes.

[SkyHigh]

Re: Brakes

Its not the short field issue so much the taxing in the wind that is the problem. The brakes barely hold through a run up. The plane is built and sold as competition to other planes in its catergory, but it falls short in ground contol. Good dependible brakes are a must for expending operating range from beyond sunny, calm and smooth.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Brakes

is built and sold

You must know something we don't!

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Brakes

To all Guys that love the Shinns as I do lets stop trying to convince others (like those with 24 inch wheels!!!!!!... somthing I did not know when I made my orginal reply to this "less than standard "aircraft /operators post )

Instead lets let em get there "needed " ...real or percieved hydro brakes and we buy up the Shinns they remove.

Please any of you out ther that want to sell em. I WILL BY EM reasonable price.Those converting must agree with me anyway.Based on some of the posts sounds like I ought to get em dirt cheap!!!!!!!

This will work out to be a real win win. Bravo.