Good Buy? What to look for?

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

What are the implications if the proper paperwork is unknown or lost? Any one-time STC should be on file with the FAA, correct? Where would I check to make sure? Is there a website/phone number that someone could pass on?

So, to summarize.... this aircraft should carry 12 gallons of fuel (9 usable), have a gross of 1150, and cruise around 95 to 100 mph. It may also have an empty weight of 700-800 pounds. Does that sound like a fairly accurate shot in the dark? I can't talk the guy who knows all this till after Wednesday, so I'm trying to figure out some ball park numbers.

thanks,
Mike

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Well.... after trying to get the folks who had this plane to show it to me for a full week (guy was out of town), and doing tons of research, someone else called the owner, offered $2500 more than I had been quoted for the plane, and picked it up that evening with a mechanic for a pre-buy..... I'm completely bummed by this.... but have come to believe that the T-craft may be the right plane for me.... so if anyone knows of one for sale in the West Virginia/Pennsylvania/Ohio/Maryland area, let me know! This one was truly snatched out from under me....

Thanks for all the info!
Mike

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike Do not be so bummed,. A BL65 is not allowed to have a Continental engine of ANY KIND PERIOD. This is according to the type certificate that god knows why they did this (Its the same damn airplane ... as a BC65.) Of course it MAY have been legally changed (not many were LEGALLY changed) Here in is where the plot thickens.. In my part of the world (and for MOST others )it is damn near impossible to get the FAA TODAY to approve a major alteration ..(even though its THE SAME DAMN AIRPLANE) AND the A-65 is a much much better engine (READ SAFER). Forrest will give you a song and dance story about the factory issuing a letter saying it was the SAME DAMN AIRPLANE (This when Ferris's had the company ) This MAY be true but I have benn unable to have him respond when asked about obtaining a copy Soo the BL65s are orphans. Period.

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Hey Jim... thanks for the info... after reading my last post, I realized it sounded kind of whiny.... but it sounds like I may have dodged a bullet! I still think the original Tcraft may be the right plane for me, so I'll keep looking!

Mike

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike. Your Quote "I still think the original Taylorcraf is the plane for me" Does this mean you have found another plane ? Or are you thinking that A BC12D is " is the orginal?" I only ask because the early Taylorcrafts SHOULD be lighter (not always they sometimes ...ok often gain weight over the years) The early models BC BL BF (Continental Lycoming Franklin) were built a fair amount lighter (also carry about 100 pounds less gross weight unless the wings have been upfitted). The early ones when done up right(read a legal Continental A-65 or better yet 85) are the better planes (ok we all have opinions) But it is a fact they are a bit better performers but hey the Taylorcrafts ALL are great performers.Your chances of finding a good BC12D are better .This is due to the relative scarcity of the early ones to the higher production run of the BC12D. Happy hunting !

[Richard Boyer]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

I only ask because the early Taylorcrafts SHOULD be lighter (not always they sometimes ...ok often gain weight over the years)

Jim, are you sure it is the plane that is gaining weight???

Richard Boyer
N95791
Georgetown, TX

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Yea well you noticed I did not break out a difference between empty and gross!! Always some one..........

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Okay... thanks for the info.... but what's the final word on the BL to BC controversy? If I understand this correctly, this plane (a BL converted to a BC) can only be legal if the owner who converted it received a one-time STC for the change. Otherwise, it would need to be registered as experimental.... is that correct? And what are the implications if it's illegal? Will it not pass a proper annual? If for some reason the current deal falls through, and I have another shot at it, I'd like to know exactly what the situation is.

As far as another plane, I've already been sent info on two from users of this list.... both '46 D's with fresh engines.... one $18k, one $19k.... I say I think the Tcraft looks like the right plane.... but that is really just speculation on my part... I've never flown in one, and only seen a couple up close. My statement is based on converstions with my Dad, who flew one in a flying club in Panama in the mid 60's, and from my own research. Honestly, the $15k price tag, quickly reduced to $10k on that first plane, is what initially got me interest... so these other planes are a good bit more than I originally hoped to spend! But then, arn't they all.....
Thanks,
Mike

[hangarb7]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike,

First of all, regarding the number of Taylorcrafts, it seems that every airport has one or more. Many have sat for years without annual. Some can be had for relatively cheap; others are expensive 'cause the owners really think they have something valuable.

But the fact that you lost that particular airplane is no big deal. Honestly, in my life the times that I thought I missed out on something, it turned out to be in my favor. Just be thankful that you were introduced to the possibility of owning a Taylorcraft.

I also was starry-eyed over a T'craft that I knew for many years, and it came to me cheap two years ago. I flew it almost a year, and I knew it needed some TLC, but it has been down for one full year as I struggle to solve sixty years of problems that the new mechanic has found.

It will be annualled soon and will once again be a great lady. I offer a ride to you when you can visit, as I'm not far from you. If I had it to do over again, I think I would have bought the same plane, but I wish I would have known all the problems that it had before I plunked the money down.

Also, I have difficulty discussing it with my understanding wife. She knew I wanted that plane but I am embarrassed to tell her of all the things that were wrong in this plane that was a great buy that I couldn't pass up!

Anyway, those more expensive airplanes are most probably worth the extra cash. A bargain is a bargain, but then again, it's no fun sitting there waiting for pulleys from a factory that keeps making promises but never ships. Still, I would inspect those more expensive airplanes with the same detailed eye.

Give me a call later in the summer. If I know of one available locally, I'll let you know.

Jack Dernorsek
'46 BC12D N44057
Rostraver FWQ
Belle Vernon, PA

[M Towsley]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike,

You won't be unhappy if you find a good one. My first plane purchase was a '46 BC-12D , last October, at the recommendation of a friend. It really is the best, (performing), plane in the 65hp category as it is cheap to run and fun to fly. I just got my license in this aircraft and I believe it made me a better pilot in doing so. I was lucky, as the prior owner was asking a 'pre- Sport Pilot' price. In case you haven't noticed, T-Crafts going for $14,000.00 to $15,000.00 prior to Sport Pilot are now going for $18,000.00 on up into the $20's. That is probably what you are going to run into from now on. You may be lucky as I was and find what to you is an aircraft in your price range. Shop around, there are quite few T-Crafts out there that have been taken care of and properly documented. Hopefully, one with your name on it. Good luck!

Marty
N95275

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Thanks for the encouraging words, everyone! Jack, I'll take you up on that ride offer as soon as your plane is back up! Let me know! I might like to fly up and take a look at her before that, if you don't mind.... just to check one out up close.... I rent a 172 at Waynesburg, so it would only be 15 minutes or so.

On another note... I hadn't even thought about the sport pilot rule increasing the value of these planes, but it makes perfect sense. Might be a good time to buy. Thanks for the input!

Here's a whole new question: How much better do these post war planes perform with the 85hp conversion? I've seen a few advertised as being STC'd to a model 19, claiming 115mph, 1500lb gross, etc... any thoughts about whether a converted model would be a good investment?

Man, these forums are an incredible resource! Gotta' love the internet!

--Mike

[Robert Lees]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Might I add that the 65 hp Continental Taylorcraft is the best kept light-aircraft secret...since the 1940's?

Just compare the performance...and price... between the 65 Cub and 65 Taylorcraft.

And I like Cubs! Just cannot afford one.

Rob

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike the STC on BC12Ds to go to a 85 USUALLY means the upgrade to the Model 19 . The earlier Taylorcrafts ,you will hear people say pre-war, do not have any STCs existing for an engine change EXCEPT if you find a diamond with an approved (either through a one time stc as you earlier mentioned or a 337) not many exist in the earlier model with the higher engine HP conversion. Makes my blood pulse just thinking how the climb performance could be. Ill ask again while I am thinking about this : DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE ANY APPROVED PAPER WORK TO INSTALL A 85 on a BL???
OK now you have been provided the feed back you need from the other owners here . GO forth young grasshopper and look patiently for any good clean solid (or rough if you want a project... not reccomended ) . Again happy hunting . Its hard to go wrong with a Tcraft !

[VictorBravo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike, stick with the Taylorcraft design, and just spend a little effort to find a nice one. Nobody cares if it's UGLY outside, but you do need to have one in nice MECHANICAL condition.

There are T-craft owners all around the country (and the UK, Rob), so someone should be able to take a look at one that you find. I can say that USUALLY the paperwork and records on the airplane will tell the majority of what you need to know. USUALLY! There are times when the paperwork shows a diamond and the airplane is a rock. If you see lots of paperwork, lots of references to AD's being complied with and things being inspected, you have a better chance of finding a decent airplane. It is not an absolute rule, but it works more often than not.

When you have a 30 year gap in the records, or worse yet 30 years worth of generic, 4-line "tailgate" or "pencil-whipped" annual inspections with nothing specific listed, then you BETTER see a detailed restoration soon after that. No airplane sits for 30 years on the back tie-downs and stays airworthy.

I have to say this from the heart. Buy a T-craft that has been restored within the last 10 years and not crashed/abandoned/sat outside/whatever since then. You SHOULD be able to find one of those for less than $20K with 65 HP, and for less than $23K with the 85 engine. With all respect to those honest, earnest, and kindhearted individuals who advertise in Trade-a-Plane, they're full of $**T ! Playing the asking price game in TAP is a long-honored tradition of BS and saber-rattling.

Unfortunately, Taylorcrafts and Aeronca Chiefs very frequently are neglected for years, then given a coat of incorrect automotive paint by an airplane broker who bought it from the widow for $5000 and is then listed for sale at $12K. If you even consider EVER buying a T-craft from a broker or re-seller, you need to be DOUBLE cautious and TRIPLE suspicious!

Bill

[paulp]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Howdy Mike,

You mentioned that you had not flown a Taylorcraft. You probably should know that they are noisy, require constant control inputs and continous rudder appliactions. Parts are hard to come by and you will always need something. Hand propping is a pain in the backside. And if you want to fly in the winter the heater will warm the acft interior up to about freezing. Maintaince is constant and ongoing and will cost a fortune if you don't do it yourself. If you do accomplish most of it yourself it will only cost a small fortune!!!

That being said, I personally would not own anything but Taylorcraft!!! They are outstanding short field preformers and, in my opinion, are truly a pilots airplane. As soon as the restoration is complete on my '45 mod 19, I am going to find another BC12-d and restore it with no upgrades.

Buy a Taylorcraft(you can find a good bird for about 15-18K with good paperwork and clean history) I would recommend something post-war-46 or later. Once you master it's characteristics you will love the airplane and will wonder why more people don't want one. Above all, buy one that is mech. in good shape. The cosmetics can come later. And, spend the money and have a good pre-buy done by an INFORMED A&P/AI that has had experience with classic aircraft-Tcrafts in particular.

Good luck and good hunting. There's one out there with your name on it. Keep looking and you will find it but be patient!!!