Good Buy? What to look for?

[Mikeamondo]

Hi... newbie to the forum here... I've got about 105 hours total, 1.5 in a cub, the rest C172... and have found a 1941 BC12, possibly converted to 85hp, but not sure yet. The annual lapsed last November, but it was flying up till that time, and the owner says it should annual okay and would include it in the price. Fuse. was recovered in Ceconite? in '72, the wings in 2002. 3900 TT with 605 SMOH.... Was asking $15k, but she said I could have it for $10k.... sound like a steal... is it? I guess a pre-purchase inspection by an AP would tell the story, but is there anything in particular I should look for when I go see the thing? Thanks for your input!
----Mike

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Do the pre-purchase inspection!!!!!

[paulp]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Howdy Mike,

A VERY, VERY THROUGH PRE-BUY by someone who is knowledgable about classic aircraft.

[lktiller]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

I purchased a '41 model in '95 for $11,500. First aircraft, first Taylorcraft, first taildragger. Loved it on site! Didn't do much of an inspection, starried eyed!
Sold by a 'fly-by-night' broker, in annual, just re-covered, engine 50 hrs smoh. No show winner but lovely!
friend flew it home for me said it flew a bit right wing heavy. I didn't care!

1st annual had to rebuild mags, Tach, compass.
Bit of a ground-loop in '97 caused me to take it completely apart.
IA A&P discovered:
No legal dataplate.
No legal record of engine rebuild
No legal statement of engine total time
ADs not logged correctly
The airworthiness certificate was a copy.
ALL ribs had been damaged & corroded and very poorly repaired.
Spar to fuselage brackets bent. (remember - right wing heavy!)
Lots of other mechanical problems.

If I had to do it again, I would (and did) (2nd t-craft is fine)

All this to say, do a complete inspection to include the log books. may even contact past owners.

[mulwyk]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike:
You should have an A&P look at it, of course, before you buy. But you might be able to save the cost of the inspection by looking carefully yourself first.

Look at the wing spars. Remove the inspection covers on the bottom of the wing and look inside the wing with a flashlight. The wing spars are wood, there are two of them that run the length of each wing. Look for any cracks in the wood and the dark discoloration that indicates rot.

If the wing spars are bad, you should either reject the plane or negotiate the price downward. The spars will only cost about $1000 in materials to replace (I just did mine), but the labor will run to hundreds of hours! And you'll have to recover the wings, of course. And at that point you might as well recover the whole plane... and then it starts to look like a complete rebuild.

The other famous trouble spot is in the tail. Water gets into the fuselage and runs down to the tail area and rusts out those tubes back there. It's hard to see but look for any sign of rust or damage or deformation of the steel tube structure. If the tail is rusted out, it will have to be cut out and new tubes welded in. Again, materials don't cost much ($300?), but the labor is skilled labor (welding) and if you have to hire someone to do it...well, it could get rather expensive.

You can do a quick screening test on the engine by turning the propeller through several revolutions by hand. Make sure the mag switch is off and then assume that the switch doesn't work. In other words, be careful! You are feeling for compression when you turn the prop. There should be noteable resistance to turning as the engine comes up on each of the 4 cylinders. If you're unsure what that feels like find another plane (with a good engine) and turn that engine first.

If one or more cylinders has low or no compression it means the engine is going to need major work no matter how many hours it has. Again, you can do it yourself under A&P supervision, but it can get expensive.

I'd say if the plane passes the above informal tests, then invest in an A&P inspection. $10,000 is a good price for an airworthy plane and you could get some cheap flying time.

But if the plane has problems, you're going to have to put some time and some money into it before you can fly. If you're looking for a project, you should try to buy it for around $8000 depending on the condition of the engine. Then plan on putting another $8000 into it along with about 2000 hours of your own labor. In the end you'll have a real sweet, 70 year old new airplane!

Bob Gustafson

[mhorowit]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Please add to your pre-inspection: measure the crank flange to insure it's not bent.
Something caused my flange not to be perpendicular. As soon as my A&P saw that it was 'examine the crankshaft' time (minimum cost to open and close = $3000)
That's when he said to just send him my Master Charge - Mike

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Thanks to all for the advice! I'm trying to remain stoicly un-starried eyed.... might have trouble once I'm in front of the plane Bob.... thanks particularly for the specific list.... exactly what I was looking for. Mike.... hypothetically speaking.... how would you explain to someone who has no idea how to measure a crank flange, the best method to perform that check? I know how to fly 'em, might know how to land 'em, but I'm no mechanic!
If anyone else out there has anything in particular I should check.... let me know!

Thanks,
Mike

[mhorowit]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike.... hypothetically speaking.... how would you explain to someone who has no idea how to measure a crank flange, the best method to perform that check? Thanks,
Mike

Oh, the mechanic will know how to do it. What he'll do is take a micrometer that is capable of measuring from the back of the flange to some datum plane and check how much 'wobble'. If it exceeds some limit, they get worried. Give me a moment and I'll find the real term for what he's measuring. - MIke

[mhorowit]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Here it is: "crankshaft flange run-out"

See the thread I started on 6-14-04 ("About that 'dial-out'") which describes my 'wobble' adventure. - Mike

[alwaysoar]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Just in case you're not getting the message, DO A PRE-BUY. Also be sure the A&P checks for elongation in the struts and strut attachement fittings. Frankly, you are much better off buying a plane with no question marks. Where is this plane?

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

The message is certainly getting through.... but not to worry.... I wouldn't even consider buying a plane without the pre-buy inspec. We've worked too hard for the money to gamble with it. I've learned something new about the plane.... I had thought it was a BC12-65 converted to an 85..... but the flyer says BL-12 converted to a BC-12, and then says it has a 75 horse engine. Does this make any sense? I know the BL means it began life with a 65 horse Lycoming... so I assume it was converted at some point to a 75 hp Cont..... Any ideas on what this might actually be? I plan to look at it in a few days, but I'd like to find out as much as I can prior to going there.... If I aquire the N number, is there an FAA database I can access?

Thanks,
mike

[crispy critter]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Mike,
BL to BC means it was converted from a lycoming to a continental and then it is common to upgrade a 65 cont to a 75hp cont.
If the airplane is not too far from me I would be happy to meet you and help advise you on what to look for and show you what you need to know.
I am in east kentucky.

[Mikeamondo]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Good to know the 75 horse makes sense.... But that just creates more questions... I'd be curious to know performance figures for this set up. Mainly, top speed and cruise. Also, what should be the gross? Would it have gone up with the extra 10 hp? Once again, any info appreciated!
Also... I'm located in northern WV, near Morgantown, but the plane is north of Pittsburgh.

Thanks,
Mike

[crispy critter]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

Gross wieght does not increase nor does the red line speed.Maybe a 5mph speed increase depending on the type of prop you use.You will mainly gain a little better climb performance.

[allen]

Re: Good Buy? What to look for?

The 75 HP engine is not listed on the type certificate for this aircraft. Make sure it has a valid one-time STC (or possibly a field approval) for this installation. There aren't too many that have the correct paperwork. I did a one-time STC on my A-75 engine in my BC12-D.