My recent fabric job

[PA1195]

Re: My recent fabric job

The popping and timing of events is what I've heard locally, plus possible contamination from products and procedures contrary to Stewart's recommendations. Sitting unprotected can introduce contamination Not my skill level.

Gary

[N96337]

Re: My recent fabric job

I'll go out on a ledge here and say the "worm holes" are solvent popping. People are used to shooting solvent borne paint and the solvents evaporate quicker than water, so they aren't used to the timing and haven't learned the proper technique for checking when the paint is ready for the next coat, so they rush it and wind up with solvent pops. That's the most common problem I see when teaching people to use this system, other than contamination. With a solvent borne paint, you have a fairly strong solvent that works to help with a better bond as well as purging contaminants from the substrate as you lay that next coat of paint on. With a waterborne paint, the solvent isn't so strong, so any lack of tidiness or sloppiness in application will show up. It's like I always tell people, it's different, not difficult.

[PA1195]

Re: My recent fabric job

Hi Andy, this is Dave's thread so I'll be brief as possible. I've owned nine fabric airplanes, never hangared in Alaska, but none with Stewart's as the primary cover. I've been around a few that acquaintances have redone. All have had issues in isolated spots with delamination or bubbling. I don't know the cause but that may have been due to contamination during build. I have no direct experience with auto fuel and Stewarts.

Autofuel or a blend of that and 100LL is a reality for some owners. Having a covering that's potentially subject to compromise from that fuel would be a non-starter for me. The benefits of durability and lack of cold crack would be a positive aspect. I have a few lower wing inspection rings glued on with the Stewart's glue that's holding well in an experimental test versus the Stits glue.

Never had fuel associated problems with Randolph or ???

Gary

[Stewart Systems]

Re: My recent fabric job

Earlier comments on auto fuel from Stewart Systems similar to the above: http://www.stewartsystems.aero/forum...-other-systems

Gary

Gary,

Keep in mind that was just the concerns of one person who had never used Stewart Systems. Those concerns have been proven unwarranted. We have hundreds of customers in Alaska now who have more than proven it's durability in the cold. We have airplanes dating back over 20 years now that are in fantastic condition. Matter of fact I have a piece of fabric from 1998 that is with me at the shows, feel free to stop by and see if you can make it crack. It's just as glossy as the day it was shot. I have no idea what he is talking about with "worm holes". Never seen one. I have no idea what he talking about with erosion either. Again, fuel is no issue if it's aviation fuel. And by the way, SuperFlite does not appear to be going anywhere either. I would say he was wrong on all accounts.

Andy

[Ray36048]

Re: My recent fabric job

Remember the old water based system that got Piper. All of the last Super Cubs had to be recovered at Piper's expense. That was the end of fabric airplanes for Piper. Similar problem, any gas that got to the back side of the finish released it from the fabric.

[PA1195]

Re: My recent fabric job

Earlier comments on auto fuel from Stewart Systems similar to the above: http://www.stewartsystems.aero/forum...-other-systems

Gary

[Stewart Systems]

Re: My recent fabric job

I just finished fabric on this Aeronca and started to test the fuel system with the improvised 1 gallon tank.

Gas seeped out. Autogas- non alcohol.

Hmm, what a mess.

I am about ready to scrap the whole thing. :-(

Dave R

Dave,

I am sorry that you had this issue. I understand your frustration. I think you are right that this could use a mention in the manual. We try to include everything in the manual, but sometimes I guess we take for granted that some things are common knowledge. All STC'd covering systems have been tested by the FAA to Part 23 or earlier standards that includes being resistant to AvGas. As with the other systems, Stewart Systems passed that test with flying colors. We are tested and certified for use with 100LL, Swift fuel, and the new Shell aviation gas. We have even tested our topcoats and primers with Skydrol and held up extremely well. We cannot test our products for auto fuel as there is no standard for it. There are literally hundreds of formulas for auto fuel in the US alone. It varies from state to state, county to county, and from one season to the next. Those formulas change constantly. It's not the alcohol that is the issue, it is the additives. Some of the injector cleaners and such are pretty much paint stripper. Auto fuel is a hazard to all covering systems. One formula in one area of the country may affect one system and not another, and in another area the reverse may be true. But no system is unaffected by all auto fuel. That is just the reality. A two part epoxy type topcoat will generally hold up fairly well, but the single part adhesives and primers generally will not. That is the issue. Our topcoat has never been affected by auto fuel yet as far as we know, but as with all covering systems, if the inside is exposed to auto fuel for a period of time it may be affected. Some auto fuels may affect it aggressively and others may not touch it. The safest thing to do is run AvGas. If lead is an issue for your engine, I would suggest Swift fuel. It is only slightly more expensive than auto fuel and it is a certified fuel that is safe for everything in your airplane including the covering. Another precaution that can be be taken is to topcoat the inside of areas that may become exposed to fuel with a two part epoxy paint such as EkoPoly. That can be done with a brush or roller if that's easier. That should be done regardless of the covering system that you use if you plan to run auto fuel. But having said all that, I have been handling tech support at Stewart Systems for about 1.5 years now and this is only second time I have seen any significant issues from auto fuel. It can happen, but it has not been a wide spread issue.

Andy

[waltermrich]

Re: My recent fabric job

That's about half of what's wrong with this country....ya wanna run to a lawyer and sue someone any time you stub your toe. How pitiful.
Like I said above, I've seen polyfiber lifted too as well as dope. Car gas is some really nasty stuff out of some refineries. I feel bad for Dave too, and I guarantee that Stewarts does too...
I've been at this game of rebuilding airplanes since 1983 and finally got myself poisoned enough that I had serious health problems from the chemicals in the other systems. There's only 2 ways that cyanide will leave your body, and neither one are very nice. I've been there. That being said, I've used what is now known as Stewarts since 1996 and not had any real problems with the system. It IS different and it does require some different techniques and steps. I'm not sure the exact chemical in some car gas that attacks it like Dave had, but I've seen some car gas that didn't do anything to it either. I'll keep using it...I know it works and there's nothing out there that's as flexible or long lasting, and I've been around pretty much all of the systems (except Oratex) so far....they all have their weaknesses.

There is nothing wrong with the law, the law is there to protect people , greedy people can and do exploit it

Re: My recent fabric job

I see much "talk" about spraying the inside of gas tank bays and I wonder what they are working on.

A t-craft or Aeronca wing bay can't normally be sprayed on the inside. The tank is in place when doing fabric and the bay is normally completely enclosed by fabric unless you do a mod and add a metal cover.

Dave R

Re: My recent fabric job

No dog in this scrap but do a search on Stewart's recovering process and gasoline, mainly auto fuels. Not a new issue. Auto gas is bad stuff with a history of delaminating coverings especially if it contains ethanol.

May be time for a test. Aircraft fuel and auto gas w or w/o ethanol and some various coverings. See if any or all are susceptible.

Gary

Hi Gary,

I searched as you said and you are correct.

It is not a new issue, Stewarts has been aware of it for a long time.

Therefore it is inexcusable that Stewarts does not give its customers a heads up in their manuals about this.

Fact: they make zero mention in manuals and literature. Do they mention it at the seminars at Sun 'n Fun, Oskhosh?

That is bad faith relations. I never used anything but nitrate and butyrate and never had any concerns about this issue with that stuff.

A warning in the manual is the right thing to do, but it is not there. I wonder why since it is an old problem?

Dave R

p.s. I notice in the old posts that I found by doing Gary's suggested search that others gripped a long time ago to add a warning to the manual (as I also did this week).

[PA1195]

Re: My recent fabric job

No dog in this scrap but do a search on Stewart's recovering process and gasoline, mainly auto fuels. Not a new issue. Auto gas is bad stuff with a history of delaminating coverings especially if it contains ethanol.

May be time for a test. Aircraft fuel and auto gas w or w/o ethanol and some various coverings. See if any or all are susceptible.

Gary

[N96337]

Re: My recent fabric job

and put some ammunition behind it like a statement that it warrants contacting an attorney just to get them to do something for others down the road. .

That's about half of what's wrong with this country....ya wanna run to a lawyer and sue someone any time you stub your toe. How pitiful.
Like I said above, I've seen polyfiber lifted too as well as dope. Car gas is some really nasty stuff out of some refineries. I feel bad for Dave too, and I guarantee that Stewarts does too...
I've been at this game of rebuilding airplanes since 1983 and finally got myself poisoned enough that I had serious health problems from the chemicals in the other systems. There's only 2 ways that cyanide will leave your body, and neither one are very nice. I've been there. That being said, I've used what is now known as Stewarts since 1996 and not had any real problems with the system. It IS different and it does require some different techniques and steps. I'm not sure the exact chemical in some car gas that attacks it like Dave had, but I've seen some car gas that didn't do anything to it either. I'll keep using it...I know it works and there's nothing out there that's as flexible or long lasting, and I've been around pretty much all of the systems (except Oratex) so far....they all have their weaknesses.

[n6346m]

Re: My recent fabric job

I have been burning mogas in my L-2 since I bought it 20 years ago. Since the L-2 has no fuselage tank (only two wing tanks), I have done more than my share of spilling gas into the wings when filling them with jerry cans. The airplane is covered with Ceconite with Randolph dope and shows no sign of damage from the fuel. The tops of the wings are starting to show their age and I will be recovering the wings soon. I think I'll stick with what has worked well for the last thirty years.

[waltermrich]

Re: My recent fabric job

Sounds like a painful lesson, sorry for your troubles, sometimes life brings these types of unwanted problems, I would certainly call Stewarts and tell them of your troubles and put some ammunition behind it like a statement that it warrants contacting an attorney just to get them to do something for others down the road. Im sold on Poly Fiber sorry Drude.

Re: My recent fabric job

Hi Dave
Was the EkoBond, EkoFill and EkoPoly all damaged by the autofuel? After using Poly Fiber for years and years I had decided to use Stewarts for my current covering project. After seeing your pictures I'm going to start over with the Poly fiber.
I hope there is some way to salvage your cover job!

Garry

Yes all three were effected. I was told today from Stewarts that the eckobond will be ok when it dries.

I am told by the ecofill needs to be removed and the fabric cleaned with lacquer thinner to remove hydrocarbons then re-ecofill, re-ecoprime and topcoat.

Its doable but I have other things to do also.

If the documentation made a warning about this I would have changed to 100LL, but no warning exists. That annoys me and saying that I should have known is not appropriate since I am using the product not developing it. I have used only Randolph dopes prior to this. Should be in the manual.

Dave R