Help with ID of wreckage

[scottvanlaer]

I am trying to identify this wreckage found on Spruce Lake in the Adirondacks. http://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.c...post1284633556 Predates NTSB. It looked like a Piper Cub at first been then I found flaps when I dug up the wing. I only found 1 seat but could have been tandem. Could this be a Taylorcraft?

[d.grimm]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

Definitely a Cub. Look where that front spar
Attaches, about 12 in back should be a small welded on tab
with a serial number.
Dave

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

Sure looks like a Cub boot cowl and firewall, as well as a lot of other components, but some are right that a few parts just don't look right. Pretty good chance that it could be a "Frankenstein" built from parts of several planes as a homebuilt. If it was found in the Bush it could have been what someone put together to "improve" on a Cub......but it didn't.

Hank

[Theuns]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

I also recon is was a J-3. The extruded allu spar and as mentioned the way it joins the fuselage screams Piper.
The stab is also of a J-3 or J-5 without the aerodinamic counter balance.
The seat "pan" looks wrong though as the standard J03 front seat only has the welded tube frame with the seat section being a canvas that it laced onto it.

Theuns

[scottvanlaer]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

Thanks for the responses. Looks like cub but flaps have me puzzled.

[LostnSpace]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

I will cast my vote for Hank's response, it looks like a frankenstein plane with some cub parts, but the fuel shut off is not J-3, Tom

[Guest]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

PA12? Wasn't that a cub with flaps and a wide back seat? Or am I thinking of a PA11?

I think that you need pictures that show more features like tail details and rudder shape.

Dave

[crispy critter]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

No dought, it is a cub. And the part you show in your pics that you dug out of the ground and I assume your calling a flap is actually an aileron. The tail feathers you show are also certainly from a j3 or pa11. The fuselage is not wide enough to be a J5. As for seats....y'all are seeing something in the pics that I'm not. Take a look at the one pic that shows the entire fuselage looking in thru the top, I can see what looks like broken up pieces of the bottom of the front seat frame. Not sure what the one pics is that shows the flat piece full of lightening holes....that piece has me very puzzled.
As for finding info on the crash....it could've been something not reported,especially if it was an illegally modified aircraft. Also from the extent of the damage and the condition of the remains it's possible that it could be a wreck where no one was ever found....might wanna do a missing persons check of pilots in the area. That airplane looks like its very possible to have been there for 50 years(give or take). If so there's little to or no chance of finding any human remains without a full out CSI for DNA of the area.
Another thought.....could've been a boot legger or dope runner back in the day....could explain the strange metal piece with all the lightening holes and the absence of a second seat frame. Look for evidence of bottles, jars, etc around the sight. Of course if he was on his way back from a delivery there wouldn't be anything like that. My dad said there used to be big money all over the eastern mountain ranges for anyone who could fly an airplane and didnt mind hauling moonshine. In fact i had a relative who did it for years and made a fortune.

[scottvanlaer]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

Kevin, thanks for the great info. A cub had ailerons? I just read the difference between aileron and flaps and looked at another picture I took showing the entire wing when I dug it up and they are ailerons and not flaps. I'll post that on the other website. So there are no flaps! Measuring the wings and fuselage the wing span is very close to that of a cubs. The part with all the holes, I thought was the seat. The opposite side of the piece with the fuel shut off and tank capacity on it had the the throttle, I'll post that as well. There was no obvious conventional door found , which also makes me think cub.

Looking at the crash site it's hard to believe no one was injured but you never know. The plane was salvaged but you are right, not necessarily by the owner. There was a crash in 1959 near Lake Placid, to the north were the owner went back in to salvage the engine and it was gone. This lake is historically, a popular fishing spot and the crash is readily visible so I am confident there are no human remains there.The Adirondacks were a popular corridor for smugglers during prohibition (Canada -NYC) but this crash is much later. This lake is not near a community and the accident was most likely from a bush pilot attempting to land or take off for fishing or hunting purposes. There were 3 main flying services in the area. Two of which are still in operation. They are family businesses so there is generational knowledge and neither knew of this plane. The third, Birds Seaplane Service is not. The founder, Bus Bird wrote a book that I read but he makes no mention of this lake or crash. Very entertaining book though! This lake is now in a Wilderness area and planes are prohibited but in the 1950's it was probably fairly common to see a plane there.

[high time cub]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

This appears to be a stock Piper PA-11. The salient features are:

1) Classic blue and yellow paint.

2) Metal spars.

3) Small header tank (viewable through the instrument panel) and left side fuel lines.

4) 17 gallon stencil (18 gallon left wing tank), but listed as 17 on the type certificate on page 7, here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/ec36f12e6e139c5b8625785c006c09c8/$FILE/A-691%20Rev%2034.pdf

5) Perforated metal rear seat pan with Piper seat belt wire-loop and hinge for plywood back.

Agree with Kevin, photo shows an aileron, not a flap.

http://www.acmp.com/blog/piper-pa-11-cub-special-the-missing-link.html

Best,

HT

[scottvanlaer]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

Wow, great work. You convinced me. The missing link. I may have mentioned above but wing measurements fit cub or the PA-11.

[crispy critter]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

I agree with you high time, i didn't notice the small header or 17 gal(both dead give away for pa11). However after laying down last night it hit me what the perforated metal pan was which lead me to think pa11.... Which by all rights is a J3 with 90hp and enclosed cowl. Good catch high time.

[NC36061]

Re: Help with ID of wreckage

The first production Super Cubs did not have flaps or balanced elevators either, I think the only difference between the -11 and early -18 was the rudder, the -11 using the J-3 rudder and -18 using the more rounded J-4/5/PA-12 style. If you can find the rudder that would be conclusive, although the blue and yellow is consistent with the early -11 paint scheme. If it really had only one seat, it might have been converted to a duster or sprayer...