Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

[crispy critter]

Tribe,
I just learned that I have to replace the wing attach fittings on Crispy Critter before I can do the upgrade to a C-85-8(no electrics).Does anyone out there know where I can find a set of wing attach fittings(butt fittings)for a BC12D-85,model 19,or F-19.....or maybe someone can make me a set.....PLEEEEASE ?????
Thanks

[jgerard]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

do you have to gusset the spart attach points at the fuse also?

keep us informed on the progress.

Jason
N43643

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

THAT would be a pert the factoryshould have Kevin. I WOULD THINK anyway that a bunch have already been made. I doubt any are being made (my opinion only...based on what I hear on the site or could reason.) Let us know what the factory says they have or does. JIM

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

The factory should have the parts and the "official drawings" I have the "inspection drawings". The Harer STC has all this stuff. The rear butt fitting is all the same A-A807 ; the front fittings are A-A806 ( all 65 hp) and the famous A-A806-1 used on all the rest of the ships.... ( maybe NOT on the BC12D-85 if there is no gross wt increase) ....
Then we have the strut attach fittings..... the rear is B-809 L/R and the front is B-A809 L/R for the 65 hp.....
THEN we have the -2 fittings . ie rear B-809-2 L/R and the famous front fitting B-A809 L/R for the "85HP" at 1500 lbs Gross and on up , 19, F-19, F-21 F-22 etc.... In my opinion none of this applies to a mere upgrade to the -85 with no increase in gross wt except to 1280 with the new greater horsepower....Mrs. Feris sold only the -2 fittings and the present factory should be able to supply them. they can be used any time. They have a greater shear web and are the next size up on the side plates like .065 up to .091 ( I would have to check a print to see this exact size) The gussets on fuselage were to ease production not increase any strength . CHECK WITH FACTORY FOR "APPROVED DATA"

[crispy critter]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Thanks guys.I did contact the factory this morning and I have been looking at some blue prints for the model 19 myself.The factory did say the rear butt fittings are the same on the BC12(65)thru the F-19.The front butt fitting is one size larger and uses an 11/16" phenolic bushing in the spar instead of the original 5/8",they do use the same 1/4" bolt hole.However they could not tell me if the strut fittings or the phenolic bushings in the strut fittings where different from that of the stock BC12D(65) for the BC12D-85(no electric and 1280 gross).He said he couldn't find anything else of difference on the 2 models other than the front butt attach fittings,addition of an extra fuel tank(which I already have 24gal),and up-sizing to a 5/16" fuel line(also have already done)until you get to the model 19.He also said that he didn't have all the info on the BC12D-85 to look at because they hadn't went through all that yet due to the lack of interest in that model( ).Everybody that is doing the upgrades are doing the model 19 or F-19.
I'll do a lot more reserch on this matter and keep you all posted on my findings.Also,thanks for your help again too Forrest,you're always a big help.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Kevin, are you sure you need to upgrade the fittings just for the 85? If you keep at 1200lb, there should be no need for the bigger fittings.
We have approved data here in the UK for this, would the FAA accept that?
Rob

[crispy critter]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Rob,
That's what I'm trying to do.I want to upgrade to the BC12D-85.At first I was told that it was just paper work and a little red tape but now I'm finding out that the -85 does use the heavier(.091)(part# A-A806-1)front spar attach fitting and 11/16" phenolic bushings in the front spar.However I'm getting mixed signals on the rest of the stuff.Some say I also need to replace or modifiy my front strut attach fittings and the phenolic bushings that go under them and some say I don't.Nobody seems to have enough info to support any of there statements.When I mention 85hp everyone automaticly assumes model 19 or F-19 and 1500lbs gross weight and very few people are even aware of the BC12D-85 and it's 1280 gross.The factory couldn't tell me for sure about anything except the front butt fittings&phenolic bushings,5/16" fuel lines,and minimum 18 gal of fuel.This is stuff I already knew.Bob Harer says I have to do the complete upgrade using his STC and if I use his STC paper work then this would be true but all I want to do is upgrade to a BC12D-85 taking my gross weight from 1200 to 1280 and other than the extra horse power there will be no other changes,same baggage compartment and weight capasitiy.If I use the Harer STC I'm also required to make changes to the baggage compartment and several other items that I don't need or want and that STC will make it capable to handle all the other model 19 and F-19 upgrades which I also do not want.
I have spent the last 2 days searching the registry,talking to people with the FAA,and trying to find anyone who has done this before on just a 337 form.I know it has been done before and I know I don't have to do all,if any, of the model 19 or F-19 upgrades to make this happen but damned if I can find a legal way to do it yet.I have a few friends high up in the FAA that says if I can just find ONE 337 form they will give me approval.
I'm really scratching my head on this one and it seems that only C.G.Taylor himself knows the answer.I really don't want to disassemble my wings again but it's starting to look like I might have to if I want to keep this legal.If nothing else,I am going to use the heavier front spar fittings(butt fittings)and change the phenolic bushings from 7/16" to 11/16" since it is a very simple job and won't take too long to do.I have already welded the rectangle piece onto my strut attach fittings.If this is not enough then I think I'll just bootleg the rest.I'm not removing my strut fittings and going through all the hassle just to go from a 3/8" phenolic bushing to a 15/32" phenolic bushing for a measely 80lbs increase in gross weight.
Once I sort through all of the red tape and finally decide what I'm going to do(legal or not)I'll let you guys know.Mean while,any help or comments from you guys would be a great help and comfort.
Thanks
PS.Rob,I did ask my FAA friend and he said it had to be a US 337.Thanks anyway.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Kevin:

our UK-approved data is for a straight swap from the 65 to the 85 (non-electric). Same gross weight, same engine mount, same cowl, some minor modification to the exhaust & baffles to fit the new engine, and same gross weight. Is it worth the grief for 80lb additional?

As I say, this is not FAA approved, only here in the UK.

Why just not stay with 65hp?

[crispy critter]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Rob,
I will ask him again but I'm sure he will say it has to be a US 337.I might however get him to approve a one time field approval if I leave the gross at 1200lbs.I really don't care about the measely 80lbs. or the extra 20 horses but my father learned to fly in this bird and he has said for years that if it ever flies again it would be great to have 85hp on it.To be perfectly honest,when I started this process I was told by everyone I talked to that it was just a simple paperwork form and no airframe mods were needed as long as I was just upgrading to the BC12D-85.If I'd known all this was going to happen I would have done this stuff while the wings were already apart.Now it may be a real pain in the butt fittings.However,I am very hard headed(so says my wife)and I don't like to give up on something once I've started,so it will have 85hp on it or it won't fly until it does!!!

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Forget the 337 bit
IF you want a BC12D-85 DO WHAT it says to do on the TC #696 NOT 19 , F-19 or anything on the TC#1A9 . You need the "approved data" from the factory on the difference between BC12D & BC12D-85.... THEY have it there in Texas... check out the News from the factory on the front page for more on the never ending saga.....

[crispy critter]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Forrest,
The guys I talked with today from the factory didn't seem to know or have much info about the BC12D-85.One of them even told me he didn't know they may such a model until he started looking it up.Both of them kept wanting to give me info on the model 19 .
I have another question for you guys that have done the model 19/F-19 upgrades from the BC12D.Will the larger front butt fitting fit between the fuslage attach mount.The original BC12D fittings on Crispy will just barely fit the way they are,if they were any larger at all they would not go.Do I also have to modifiy my fuslage attach points also to make this work with the heavier butt fittings?????
This is getting really agervating just for a few more ponys under the cowl.I'm beginning to wonder if anyone would notice if I were to hide a C-85 under an A-65 data plate !

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Lets sleep on it tonight. I will pull data tomorrow after I come back from Hospital visits. NOT me just for the sick people.... remember that is the same factory folks that told a few that the Model A & B were "almost the same" night night Forrest

[crispy critter]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Forrest,
I looked up the TC#696.It shows the BC12D-85 as being issued on Sept.30 1948.It reads; Same as BC12D except for minor wing attach mods and other minor structural mods(not exact words but you get picture).However,I have seen a couple(I was looking to buy them)BC12D-85's in the past.Both of them were 1947 BC12D-85.According to the logs and at least one 337 form the airplanes were indeed built and sold sometime in 1947.One had a 337 form dated summer(don't remember exact month...june or july)from a ground loop incident while the airplane had around 40 hours on it.It occured in Illinois.
So,are the dates wrong on the STC#696 or were there some BC12D-85 t-crafts sold prior to Sept.30,1948 and kept quiet about them or did they fall under some kind of exemption?Also,I never seen a BC12D(65hp)that was manufactured after 1946.What did the factory do for almost 2 years?

[Don Eide]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Kevin,

I haven't posted anything for over a year, because computers and I don't get along very well. I was totally lost on this web site, but I'm going to try it again.
Anyway, I have a copy of the Harer STC which has two Drawing List. One is for the BC12D-85, and the other is for the BC12D-4-85 and Model 19.
The drawing list for the BC12D-85 is only ten pages long. Twenty nine for the BC12D-4-85 and Model 19. The ten pages are as follows.
1. Main Spar changes.
2. Front Strut Fitting.
3. Rear Strut Fitting.
4. Front Butt Fitting.
5. Rear Butt Fitting.
6. 7. 8. 9. Drawings to build the Butt Fittings
10. Fuel installation with the left tank optional.
END

The Baggage changes, plus others, are for the BC12D-4-85 and Model 19.
Hope this helps. Hope I can send this. Here goes nothing.
Don

[crispy critter]

Re: Crispy Critter Needs More Help!

Don,
Thanks for the info.I already knew what was on the Harer STC but I want to know if that is what they did with the first BC12D-85's that rolled off the assembly line.All the mods done in the Harer STC makes the airframe the same as the model 19 or F-19 and capable of upping the gross weight to 1500lbs with or without electric,extended baggage,etc.I'm trying to find,or make a way to add the the C-85-8F without redoing all the hard work I've already done to my wings.I don't want,nor do I need the extra weight increase.Even if I get this approved some how,the gross weight will only increase 80lbs if any.
Good luck with the sight and I hope you stay around.If ya need any help finding your way around just let me or any of the other members know and we will be glad to help.